Reading Teachers Lounge

This is the Reading Teachers Lounge where listeners can eavesdrop on professional conversations between elementary reading teachers. We are passionate about literacy and strive to find strategies to reach all learners. Shannon and Mary are neighbors who realized that they were “literacy soul sisters” at a dinner in their Atlanta neighborhood. Once they started chatting about reading they haven’t really stopped. Come join the conversation.

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Subscriber Episode • April 18, 2025 • Shannon Betts and Mary Saghafi • Season 7 • Episode 9

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Shannon and Mary welcome Brandon Cardet-Hernadez from Mrs. Wordsmith to the RTL to chat about smart technology resources. They talk about intentional uses of technology resources for instructional purposes and what skills will be required as our students advance in the next part of the 21st century. Listeners will gain ideas for ways to incorporate technology to elevate students' learning.

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7.9 Smart Technology with Brandon Cardet-Hernandez -

Mary Saghafi: Hello and welcome to the Reading Teachers Lounge. We have episode nine, season seven for you all today. We are so excited because we have a guest of the male gender. We're super excited to have him today. We are excited to introduce.

Mr. Brandon Card Hernandez, he is the president of Mrs. Wordsmith. And he's working there on the research backed games, books, and digital content. So today we hope to learn a little bit more about technology from him. And he has served in a variety of different areas in special education from a role of teacher, administrator, and all the way on through.

And so we are so excited to have you here today, Brandon, thank you for joining us.

Brandon Cardet-Hernandez: Thank you so much for having me.

Mary Saghafi: Brandon, we would love for you to tell us a little bit about yourself. Introduce yourself. Tell us about your role in education and how [00:03:00] you are fitting into the world of literacy right now.

Brandon Cardet-Hernandez: Great. So I've spent my whole career working in education in some form or fashion, and I think much more of my work has been about like creating the conditions for young people to win. And that's how I think about it. So I started my career as a special education teacher in New York. City. I worked in a high school setting and I loved working with, with older students, and then moved into some district roles doing school turnaround and thinking about sort of the larger New York City strategy for school improvement.

And then like so many of us, I had, I. Done the sort of work in the classroom and moved into this sort of district's position. And I think it was time to do some of the, a very different work, hard work of turning around a school myself. So I took over a school in the South Bronx, one of the lowest performing schools in the city and just had real success as a turnaround principal.

But really what I had success in was building a really [00:04:00] smart, dedicated. Team of people who are committed to solving a problem that we had seen in that one building and in that neighborhood and in our schools across the country for generations and generations. And so we had a lot of success and a lot of fun, and it was really hard.

And then I went on to work for Mayor Bill De Blassio as his education advisor. And so I saw everything from, you know, our. Union negotiations to building out the first universal threes and fours program in the United States. So really thinking about early childhood education, sort of as the core of what we were doing and restorative justice and reimagining discipline and mental health and COVID.

Lots of stuff there. We were the first, city in the country to reopen a major city in the country to reopen schools during covid. And so incredible learning, incredibly complex. And now I have been, you know, I've spent my career trying to transform outcomes from the inside out, and I have. [00:05:00] Been, you know, gifted this opportunity to try to do it from the outside in.

And so I get to work at Mrs. Wordsmith. We build literacy tools, very much focused on the science of reading, focused on developing that phonemic awareness. Focused on, focused on developing those early vocabulary skills and just deepening it and strengthening it. All very play-based. We'll talk about it more in a little bit, but that's Reader's Digest version of how I got here.

Shannon Betts: I am so fascinated by like New York City's education. We've had Wiley Blevins on a number of times and he works with some schools there too. And y'all were like the headquarters of like balanced literacy and Lucy Calkins, the reading and writing project, which we are like, I don't, I don't detest Lucy Calkins.

Like I actually learned a lot from some of the units of study, but I was always sneaking in. Structured phonics instruction when I was in that balanced literacy like mandated curriculum. But I wanna know like your experience of like how it was for that [00:06:00] transition, I'm assuming when y'all turned around the school that y'all.

Implemented the science of reading.

Brandon Cardet-Hernandez: Oh, absolutely. And listen, I think this is a complicated one. I, and probably a different podcast, but I, I like you have used some of the materials in my own teaching. There were moments of really great things. That were embedded in there, just the ways our classrooms can look and feel, the, the type of like interdependence that can happen as a reader and a writer between kids.

Some of that work is, it's incredibly important and I don't wanna lose it now. The results aren't there, and part of why they weren't there is because, you know. Teaching phonics in a systematized way is a critical lever for learning how to read. And so yeah, we had to, we had to bring that into our practice and it, it's been amazing to see this moment happening, I think across the education space where [00:07:00] we're all having that conversation.

I think we're having really sober conversations around like, what didn't work, even though we tried really hard to make it work. And I think like a little bit of like a tender moment too, of like. Maybe I was given some really, I wasn't given enough to do the thing that I needed to do. And so a lot of educators having sort of this sober reflection of like where their school leader or their district or their, the reading specialist, whoever it was like, sort of set them up for success as best as they could, but in, but in reality, for failure.

And then having to learn these new ways of teaching and these new modalities. And it was the perfect time for me to come in as. President and Mrs. Wordsmith because I was thinking so deeply about that. I recognize this sort of transformation that's happening and then it's like how do we build things that are supplemental tools that can help accelerate that learning that needs to happen for kids, but also the support that teachers need in order to push forward a little bit faster?

Mary Saghafi: I wonder if we could touch with our audience. I have an I'm [00:08:00] happy to say that I've used Mrs. Ward Smith's products for a little while now, so I'm, I'm happy to, you know, share my 2 cents, especially the foolproof phonics workbooks and things like that, that I've used with some of my students. So.

I do have some firsthand experience, but maybe we can share with our listeners some of the things that Mrs. Wordsmith offers as far as resources and how the fa the, the focus really is phonics-based systematic instruction. Yeah. If you just share a little bit about that. I think that oh

Brandon Cardet-Hernandez: one, it makes me so happy when I meet anyone who's using it.

It just like brings me joy and I love that user feedback, and I do love that we can be this company that's sort of improving as we go, but there are these just sort of like. Core tools that I think people really love. So the way we think about all of the work has been deeply focused in two domains, right?

Systematic phonics, right? Like really building video games like our game. Ridiculous. That does like a 10 minute sort of phonics push every single day. Tabletop card games, like our game, blah, blah, [00:09:00] blah, which is one of my favorite things we've ever done, which is like a sort of Uno, but instead of matching numbers and colors, you are really building phonemic awareness and matching those sounds and blends and die graphs and really sort of moving into that space.

And then we have these workbooks that just like continue to practice. Just these early skills as well as a sticker book that I love. See it, stick it, which like helps really increase the dosage around sight word exposure and the repetition that's needed to really sort of master those and then we move into this other space.

Which I always worry is like the space we are not talking about enough as we push for phonics, which is vocabulary acquisition. And so a big piece of what we're doing is like recognizing that like, I need you to know how to read and now I'm also gonna need you to know what words you're about to be exposed to when you're reading, so that you can move into that reading comprehension in a meaningful way.

We know a kid needs to be able to read 98% of it. Of words on a page in order to actually [00:10:00] access comprehension. And the barrier sometimes is phonics and the barrier sometimes is vocabulary. And so we push both of those. We have a game called Word Tag, which I really love. It's like our vocabulary building game.

It's about 20 minutes of play every single day. Super gamified where we use space repetition to allow for a young person to be exposed to the just right challenge of their own vocabulary learning. And that space reposition. Repetition gives them exposures four to six over the course of a few weeks so that it really moves into the science of memorization.

And then we have a bunch of other vocabulary products. Our narrative journey, which is free for all schools, is our curated narrative, writing vocabulary product with like a five minute sort of mini lesson. Or vocabulary acquisition. And then we have vocabulary and just some other really yummy tabletop card games that just allow kids to play with words in a new way.

I think those two things, that sort of phonics and [00:11:00] vocabulary acquisition, we have often lost in our instruction and the tools to do it in small batch dosage. Sometimes they're just missing from the arsenal. And so that's what we're building. We're building it on the sort of the, the digital side and then also in, in the, the physical products.

Shannon Betts: Is it focused on tier two vocabulary or morphology or a combo? It's

Brandon Cardet-Hernandez: tier two. It's actually a combo, so it's a great

Shannon Betts: question. Okay.

Brandon Cardet-Hernandez: It's a combo. But yeah, definitely pushing on the tier two vocabulary that we think sort of accelerates to the next level.

Shannon Betts: Awesome. And for our listeners, like tier one might be rain, it's raining outside right now.

That's what I just thought about. Yeah. Perfect. And then like tier two might be precipitation or something, and then a tier three word might be something like, tsunami, which would only be used in a certain like, you know, academic context or like in a cultural context or something like that.

Brandon Cardet-Hernandez: And what we've also done, so we have the sort of AI engine in the back that's feeding kids words that I.

They need to know oftentimes those [00:12:00] tier two words, particularly those tier two words, but it's understanding what they know and what they don't. So it's starting to align to their own vocabulary understanding. But we also, so it's

Shannon Betts: adaptive. That's what you're saying? So it's

Brandon Cardet-Hernandez: super adaptive. Oh, cool. It's individualized.

So what you are seeing, Shannon, is gonna be different than What's Mary's seeing is gonna be different than what I'm seeing because we have different. You know, experiences with vocabulary acquisition at the same time, as we all know as classroom teachers, is that sometimes there are just a series of words I need you to know.

And so for our school's product, word tag for schools, we've built a. You can use the sort of AI tool to just give global exposure and mastery to a, a series of words. Or you can assign word packs. So if I'm studying Mesopotamia, I know there's 25 words. I just really want you to feel confident in as we're moving through this unit of study.

Fabulous. That's the word pack I assign. Or if we're reading Bridge to Teia and there is a series of 50 [00:13:00] tier two words that might become a barrier in comprehension. But also we're just like words I want you to use in your everyday writing yourself and in your own communication. Then we've assigned word packs.

We've worked with educators to build those word packs around a series of books and a series of topics. Which then doesn't meet exactly. It's not differentiated for each kid, but it allows you to create a shared learning experience across the class.

Shannon Betts: Let's talk about that differentiation with technology.

I've talked about that a lot, especially was in a second grade classroom that my last few years in the classroom I stopped using print centers. Like I was just tired of like kids moving around flashcards and they might, I had ESOL students so they didn't necessarily know what the pictures were and things like that.

And so I moved totally to digital learning stations because it was a way for me to be like a clone of myself through those programs. Just whatever. We had imagined learning am Moby Max 'cause that's what my district paid for. But they gave the students those intent feedback. I could look I was running my group at the [00:14:00] kidney table, but I could look at my Chromebook and like see the dashboard and know where each student was and I could, you know, call out to the room and say, get back on task and things like that.

And just let's, let's, let's dig into the technology conversation and like. Not like, oh, let's give kids more screen time. But how could it be beneficial? It's not a substitute for the teacher, but how can the teacher use it to differentiate and to meet the kids' needs?

Brandon Cardet-Hernandez: One, I love hearing about your classroom, so thank you.

And it sounds really rich and yummy and fun and I'm sure the kids are having a good time and also sometimes not having a good time. 'cause two things can be true, but it really sounds intentional, which I love. And I think that's the sort of anchor of. Of the, the sort of question for me, or the response rather is like, are we being intentional about when we're using any resource in our classroom?

Our time is limited. You survey any educator and the thing they will say is like, what do you wish you had more of? I wish I [00:15:00] had more time. So like we're building lessons and I am against any sort of busy work generally. So technology just for technology's sake, is like not the most strategic use of anyone's time.

Just like I think any sort of worksheet to just keep a kid busy is probably not about great use of their time either. And so I think we just have to be really thoughtful now. What I think we can do with technology, I think it's sort of remarkable, right? I think you, we have tools that customize learning.

So you know, in a classroom where student skills range widely, you know, we have AI and other sort of levers, tech fueled. Tools that can tailor content, that can tailor vocabulary, that allow us to sort of build in formulas so that students are able to get the information that they need when they need it.

I think it sort of acts as an assistive tool for kids in that way, but that customization I think is incredibly [00:16:00] important given how complex the classrooms and most of, or that most of us teach it. I think on an engagement level, there is a moment to think about like. Am I reinforcing a piece of information and the sort of boring repetition of just repeating.

It may not actually increase engagement, but can I find a, so maybe we did a mini lesson where I've shared this piece of information and then like. Am I finding another way? And is tech the way a small documentary, a song, a thing, right? Like am I finding this new way for you to engage with a concept so that I'm just reinforcing the process for you to understand it?

And then I think about this, which I think is often missed in these conversations. I think learning is the most vulnerable thing any of us do, whether we're adults or kids, right? We are like, and every day we ask kids to come in and take this incredible risk, which is to be incredibly public in their learning and to trust us with their failure and their success, [00:17:00] and.

All of us, all three of us have very different experiences doing that. Sometimes it's those experiences that become historical in our lives and they create barriers for other risk taking, right? This is just the reality of human nature. What I love about the privacy that I think is the future of our world in many ways, but the privacy that smart technology can also allow is you can.

Rebuild trust with kids who have had that trust broken by public failure. You can allow for vulnerability in a way that looks really different because it's safe to take risks. And if you manage both of those things really well, you can create the context where someone is doing that in this private place and they feel more comfortable doing it publicly and that.

The work of doing that publicly is one of the, the things that allows for us to be highly successful adults. But that's not just a light switch. We have to experience success and, and that [00:18:00] becomes true to us, and then we have to experience failure in a really safe way so that it feels okay to take that risk again and again.

And so those things I could keep going on. I mean there's a million ways this, this can sort of drive how we think about classrooms and the types of classrooms we want, but that's some of the sort of magic for me.

Mary Saghafi: I love how you have touched on several topics that are very important to me because my background is also special education, so I'm constantly thinking about.

Student motivation. I'm constantly thinking about how to best engage students, and I work with a lot of students who happen to have a DHD for example. And what they are lacking is sometimes understanding how to initiate the task or sometimes understanding those connective pieces of what do I do next?

Or making sure that their attention is engaged enough to understand. Is connected to the next part, and those little finite skills are so difficult to teach. However. Many [00:19:00] times I've noticed that children who have A DHD often excel in video game and gamification platforms because there are very clear and explicit rules.

They understand very clearly what is the next step, what is the piece that comes or what piece am I missing? What do I need to change to do next time? And a lot of times in social situations that is not all often obvious and a lot of times it's an expected. Behavior that adults have of children that they may or may not have learned yet.

So I think that embracing some of these benefits of technology, and not just villainizing screen screen time, because there are many other things, but we can also leverage technology. So I think you stated that in such a beautiful way. It really resonated with me. So I just have to commend you for that.

But also just kind of elaborate on some of those thoughts that I was having as you were sharing this.

Brandon Cardet-Hernandez: I I love that. And I will tell you this, I, I talk about this often and I get this [00:20:00] really sort of great opportunity, right, to have been on the instructional design part of like building sometimes great lesson plans and like all of us in this goal, ones that didn't go so well.

Right? And I can look back at where did, when I think about the greatest lessons I've done or the greatest units of study I've, I've. Built and the ones that weren't so great. You and I both know, it's like I lost something on procedure. I lost something on like real clear, explicit instructions and clarity around roles and responsibilities.

I've lost a reward system in it. Like what were the motivating tools that allowed you to keep going through the more difficult parts? All of those things that we know build great lessons, right? Not just content alone is not enough. Right, like there is the instructional design around the sequence that allows someone to feel good in the process and then to keep moving.

The same is true for great gamification, which is why Marriott's like, it's the science of game-based learning is what you're talking [00:21:00] about, is like, we know we can have, you know, incredible dopamine hits when we have reward systems. We've called it, I don't know, PBIS in our schools, in game-based learning.

Those are stars and rewards and all these things, right? We know we can. Deliver content in a way that allows for mastery because we can do these sort of small bite-sized dosage, get real time feedback on if a kid is moving in the right direction, celebrate the success, and also identify the opportunity zone you allow for the individualization and the risk taking.

All of that can happen in a gamified environment, and it isn't a replacement for adults. It isn't a replacement for direct instruction, but. You know, we've lived in, we live in a world where we have not seen major literacy improvements in our lifetime, and we are continuing to just sort of pedal the same water and the same outcomes year over year.

We may see a two point increase, we see a two point decrease, but [00:22:00] like we live in, I mean, we live in a country where. Generously. Nearly 75% of fourth graders are below proficient.

Shannon Betts: I'm gonna break in and just say, you look about the same age as us. Like we all started teaching right? When No Child Left Behind came about.

Yes. And all in our career, even if we've taught individually, some kids. Many kids to read. It hasn't translated across the whole nation,

Brandon Cardet-Hernandez: unfortunately. A big, a big impact. And we know what happens as a kid moves through, and if we don't actually to our earlier conversation, we teach a kid to read, but we don't continue to grow their vocabulary.

And then we're like, well, why are they not moving when they get to eighth grade? Well, it's like they're not accessing the text in the the way that they need to. Why are we seeing that slippage happen after fourth grade proficiency? All of it has to work in order. Teachers deserve. The support to do that, and they deserve the tools that allow them to increase dosage while the time that they have with kids isn't [00:23:00] increasing.

And so it's like, it's about assisting the kid, but it really also is about assisting the teacher so that the time that I'm with you, I can focus on connection. I can focus on building the foundation for that direct instruction that then allows me to sort of increase dosage from different exposures.

Shannon Betts: I love that.

That's what I did at the kidney table. I was building those relationships. I've talked many times. I had one student who was selective mute because of trauma and she only spoke at the reading group, you know, and like, 'cause it was a safe space. Like you said. I loved how you talked about the risk taking.

'cause I made that, that small group with. You know, like-minded learners that were about the same level, they could all take the same risk and they saw how it supported them. And I love that use of smart technology that it can rebuild trust and like that understanding that learning is a vulnerable experience.

Like I just appreciate that you bring that

Brandon Cardet-Hernandez: yeah. Yeah. It's easy.

Shannon Betts: It's,

Brandon Cardet-Hernandez: it's incredibly important, and I bring that [00:24:00] to everything we do here. It's been, you know, I'm lucky. Oftentimes an ed tech company like ours is not being run by an educator. Right. It's be, and that's its own set of skills and there's no judgment there, but it's often being, you know, driven by someone who understands the technology side.

I get to surround myself with really smart. Minds on the technology side. But what I do get to bring in is how as a parent of a 7-year-old, like what is the type of work I want to see happening at my home? And then as an educator, what were the skills that I want to build? And we've. Gently sort of touched upon this, but even in a world where we're thinking about screen time, and I think about it with my son as well, right?

Like the recognition that not all screen time is created equal. I, I say this all the time, that I wanna be really intentional around what my kids are using. And there is no battle I will win. Where nor do I think it is a good one or a worthy one where there is no screen time and it [00:25:00] is actually like, what do I want you using these devices for?

What are the tools you should be? Engaged with what skills do I want you to build? What is your relationship with ai? What is your relationship with using a calendar to support your own organization digitally? What is right? Because we start getting to tech across all levels. What is your relationship with using game-based learning to increase your knowledge and your skills, right?

You could be scrolling TikTok, or you could be playing a smart video game that's actually pushing and motivating you to learn more, right? And then so if we start playing around with all. All of that. Then it's like, well, great. Why are, where does technology fit in my life and what are the ways I want to use it?

Am I a passive user of technology or is it really working to support my knowledge, my organization, my, the sort of possibility for, for me as a learner? And then the same is true for me as an educator.

Mary Saghafi: Brandon, if it's okay, I'm gonna sort of shift a little topic [00:26:00] because I think that. While we're supporting students in this way, we need to also be able to support educators.

And just the same way that parents are overwhelmed with screens educators are often overwhelmed, I think, with, you know, how to utilize this or, you know I know that there are some expectations of how much screen time is allowed in some schools and things like that. So. As a, an educator who's ready and willing and ready to learn, how could you give some advice to help advocate within your school setting?

To, or, or maybe you are on a team with teachers who are a bit resistant to this and they haven't experienced, or they don't really feel like they have. Anymore on their plate to learn a new program. How, how do you kind of approach educators or school systems or other people in this kind of realm?

Brandon Cardet-Hernandez: Yeah, I think there's a deep breath that I, I have, I have with educators all the time where I was like, you just have to start with this deep breath. And you're like, I'm old. [00:27:00] And so like, I don't know, this is moving faster than I'm aware of. And there is on two levels the sort of professional development that has to happen that sometimes we just have to take on ourselves, right?

To just like stay attuned to what are the resources that I have in front of me and how can I deploy those into my classrooms. And then there's just like the. Personal development that has to happen. All of us have parents or grandparents, and we watch them age out of the skills that are needed to function in the modern world.

And, and there's a, our own desire to not have that happen to us. And so, like on the personal level, it's like, how do I use these things before they're using me? And before I have, I'm too far, it's too far along in its advancement that I can't catch up. And how do I then also find the right tools for my classroom?

We talk a lot about, and maybe we'll talk about this more later too, but we talk about the SAMR model, right? For a framework for how to use [00:28:00] classroom technology, how do we integrate it in, in a way, and I know this is something you guys are interested in too. We, I think it's really important sort of, sort of.

Paint the picture. We talk about sort of the basic experience of just like substituting something we've done before, and all of us do this all the time. This is like tech 1 0 1, where it's a beautiful thing, right? This is replacing, and some of us are really comfortable with this, right? Replacing paper and pen with, now you're gonna submit your work to me in, as, as a document, right? Or moving away from printing everything and giving you a PDF version of the text, right? And allowing you to take notes on the side of it. Just really sort of a substitution for something we've known. I think about the whiteboard in a classroom. Doing this a lot. For many people, there's a time where you just use that whiteboard and it's sure it's a piece of technology, but it really is just a replacement for the chalkboard.

You're doing two plus two, you're writing out some notes on the top. Nothing to see here, just a [00:29:00] tool that replaces, I. That's great. We have to, we live in that world, like it's an important skill, so there's no judgment on it. The second is around augmentation, right? So technology is still a substitute, but with like a added functional improvement.

So this is me using Google Docs and you submit your work to me, but I comment on the side, well, that would've been harder to do, so I'm just like augmenting just a little bit. Or you take an online quiz and you get the immediate feedback instead of waiting. 24 hours or two days, or in my case when I was a teacher, sometimes two weeks.

But you know, I tried my best or using a text to speech tool to read something digital, right? So someone's getting a read aloud, but in this augmented way. Not big tech, but small shifts that improve our lives, they make the work easier. Most of us don't judge that as a way of teaching. I think like as we get older, it's the, the third and fourth part of this that becomes harder for us to sometimes grapple with.

And that's when we talk about modification, right? So this is where it allows for significant [00:30:00] task redesign. Think about, like a young person creating a multimedia presentation. So instead of just writing a report, they're writing the report, they have video attached to it, there's images in it, and they can pull it together in this really sort of interesting way.

We would've thought about it, I don't know when I was a kid. Right. Like the, the sort of old school science fair with like the three, bo, like the three, I don't even, what are those called? Do you know what I'm talking about?

Shannon Betts: Trifold

Brandon Cardet-Hernandez: fifth grader. Yeah. You know, so like there's that and we still have a place for it, but maybe moving it even further is this sort of multimedia version of it that really sort of takes the tech to the next level.

Or just doing like science experiments online. Right? Like when I was a. Kid, I was just talking about this with my colleague the other day. You know, I had to dissect a fetal pig. Maybe we're not dissecting fetal pigs in the same way. We're like doing it in this augmented virtual reality sort of setting or collaborative documents where kids are providing real-time feedback to their peers.

So like we start feeling comfortable, then we get into like full [00:31:00] redefinition, and this is where it requires us to push ourselves the furthest with technology because typically it is. It's asking everyone in the room, adults included, to use technology in a way that isn't typical because using word processor is now typical, right?

So we're like moving it to a much deeper redefinition. That's where you have kids who can collaborate on a project across multiple countries. You can have face time sort of meetings that are really shifting. You can design a website and use coding in a different way. You can use video games. You can use game-based learning.

So I can have a unit of study as we were talking about earlier. We're gonna read Bridge to Teribithia, and so I'm gonna do my read aloud in the way that I know, and then I'm gonna break us into small groups, and I'm gonna have one group of students who are using word tag. To sort of deepen those language skills and that vocabulary skills around the reading.

You don't need me to do that. I know you're getting the dosage there, but it is a redefinition of how I do vocabulary instruction. [00:32:00] And then I have another group working on something else and another group working on something else, really thinking differently about how a classroom can look. I don't think there is a, you need to do this every day in some sort of order.

That's just not great teaching. But I do think there's like an inventory that we can do as educators to say, am I moving my kids through these skills? I. These are skills they have to have, they have to know how to use the word processor. That's our sort of our, our, our substitution. They have to know how to use it as an editing tool.

There's no job they're gonna move into, or like, they're not leaving comments and, and having to sort of engage in that sort of way. So can they move through that then it like. Are they able to do something in a collaborative way, really sort of modifying what they produce using digital? Am I giving them that opportunity?

And then what I love about redefinition is like, can I use technology to increase skill and increase dosage? And that's where as an, and that's the asset they're gonna have as they move into the [00:33:00] working world as well. Right? Like, do I use AI to help edit this paper that I'm working on? Am I using AI to be thoughtful on the research, right?

Like. What is it that I'm, I am able to do and push further for knowledge building, but also for productivity?

Shannon Betts: You remind me of this teacher I knew at my old school district. He like taught some PD classes about how to use technology and he called it app smashing. Mm-hmm. And so for example. He would have his students here in Georgia.

We have to teach like certain historical figures in like each grade level. So he would have them, maybe he would, you know, they would use a socialized book or whatever. But then he would also have them use technology to research and take notes about the historical figure. And then they would use some other app on the iPad to like.

Design the costume and then like record themselves as that historical figure and do like this sort of digital living museum or whatever. And I would be, I mean, it was just the creativity of like how he would create these like fun projects that didn't even seem like learning to the students was just incredible.

But he also [00:34:00] broke it down to like the granular level for me. 'cause when he was teaching that I was still in the classroom and he was like, it all comes down to like teaching him how to log in.

Brandon Cardet-Hernandez: Yeah. He

Shannon Betts: literally said that He was like, no matter what age they are. He was like, you know, those first few weeks when you're teaching routines and procedures.

He was like, it was all about like automatic login. Automatic login, how to use all the programs so that they learned and then they also are willing, 'cause they're young, like you said, that like they're willing to explore and kind of, they can figure out things even that we can't, but we have to first give them comfortable logging in.

The reason I'm bringing that up is because I know how I felt as a teachers. I was scared. Like when I heard all he was doing, I was like, how in the world do I get from like the social studies book to that? Like how do I manage that? How do I get the kids trained to be able to handle that and then not be like this loud, chaotic room of like 20 to 30 something kids, you know?

Brandon Cardet-Hernandez: I totally don't, I think, I don't know if it was a rhetorical question, [00:35:00] but I will say that is hard with any creative pedagogy. So even if you took out tech and you're like, okay, I'm gonna do the most interesting pen to paper, old school station work. Right. I remember this teacher who I watched who would like build like a game of life in her classroom, and the kids were playing the game of life in the class.

There was no tech. It was, but it was also the level of planning and consideration. It was careful. And there were successes, there were failures. That's true for all of it. And it goes back to that thing I said, there's something about tech because we're old that we feel like, and because you know the, one of the parts of teaching is being like, I have the information that it is asking you to not have all of the information.

I may not know exactly how to use this. I may have a student who's actually pushing my thinking and what types of questioning I could be asking an AI bot if I'm trying to do an. Interview with Abraham Lincoln and pretending my AI is Abraham Lincoln, [00:36:00] right? Like, there's all these sort of interesting things that can sort of push the process along that like, it's gonna be trial and error because they're evolving technologies.

But I think leaning in, knowing what's gonna supercharge you, what's gonna keep kids engaged, i, I, it's a risk worth taking. I. Because what we'll continue to have is not just the digital divide that we saw sort of leaning in, leading into covid, where we saw just like a different level of access to devices.

What we'll end up seeing is a digital divide around skill, where you have young people who know how to use assistive technology in a way, and I would argue those will be kids who have access to much more sort of, pedagogically rich environments. And then we'll see our most vulnerable kids have less access to those skills.

The skills that we know will allow them to compete in the world of work will allow them to compete in a really important way in [00:37:00] college. Those skills that they need that are foundational at this point in building knowledge.

Mary Saghafi: I think that's a very true statement and something that is concerning because I think as we, we see there are schools that are embracing the science of reading and there are schools that are still slow to get on board, and those students are oftentimes the ones whose parents are reaching out to me for advocacy services.

Mm-hmm. And still you know, I think that we have come a really long way in understanding what access means and how assistive technology is actually something beneficial to all, but critical for some. Yes. And you don't have to say, you know, I, I feel like the argument isn't as strong anymore. I, I'm not trying to give my student a leg up.

I'm trying to make sure that they're accessing being, you know, having voice to text if you have dysgraphia is a [00:38:00] skill that almost all students have access to right now, but it is critical for some and it is not necessarily giving them a leg up. It's a allowing them to. Demonstrate the same output that their peers are.

And I think that that is so critical. So there's, it's twofold in that, you know, sometimes our, our strongest students you know, who do have also access to this like. Ability to, to reach into tech and, and design. I'm thinking of my own daughter because Shannon and I talk about this all the time.

My daughter loves Canva. At the end of the day, she like opens up Canva and she is just plan and plan and she was designing something new and there's always a purpose behind it. There's no nothing that I'm doing to motivate her to do that. She's just curious, interested and it's something that's motivating her.

There are plenty of people who are not motivated myself, especially by Canva. And that's okay. But it's because I'm not super comfortable. I'm not as quick as she is [00:39:00] in doing that. But she's also engaging in a lot of practice. And so I think that this is a really good point. If you are allowing your students the ability to utilize ai, utilize technology in many different ways, your students are gonna kind of fly with it.

And I love that you said. I might not be a hundred percent comfortable, but I do see the value in allowing my students to be exposed to this because in the future, what we are preparing our students for this is going to be life skills that they need and will just exist as part of their world.

Brandon Cardet-Hernandez: Listen as you also were a special education teacher.

This is, there's a disability justice piece in this. It's like I'm exposing you to technology that you will be able to use for the rest of your life. And that will actually only grow, right? Like it's moving so quickly that like the assistive tools will only get more assistive. But I am giving you foundational skills to know how to use them now so that they're [00:40:00] not afraid of using them later.

Right, so that you don't feel like you have to just resort to this old way of doing something, but that you can continue, like all of us, to increase productivity, to increase knowledge as you move through the world, and to do that in a way that is utilizing the resources around you.

Mary Saghafi: Yeah. I appreciate you bringing in the social justice piece because I think that's an, and that has to be acknowledged as well.

'cause it's not difficult if you see it as a. It's not a nice to have. It's a have to have. Yeah.

Brandon Cardet-Hernandez: And

Mary Saghafi: it

Brandon Cardet-Hernandez: go ahead and you have it later. Yeah. So like this, listen, there was a time I remember too when I was a younger teacher, right? Having a student have something read aloud to them, like, felt like, oh my God, we we're taking really serious conversations around like, well, do they need it and are they gonna lose?

We live in a world now where, like if I went on the New York Times today and I wanted to have the article read aloud to me, like [00:41:00] that's a. That is just a tier one feature at the New York Times today. I can just have it read a aloud. It's not that radical of a solution. If it's going to keep me engaged, keep me focused, keep me success, keep me coming back for more like in a context where we're just get struggling to get kids to come through the door, like if the tool is assistive enough to keep them coming back.

Great. And that is the same tool they will have, or actually that is a basic version of the tool they will have when they move into the world of work. Now the question is do they, did they grow up in an environment where it was safe to use it? And if we let them feel safe to use it, then the their own level of knowledge.

Making and productivity will continue to improve, but if there's a sort of shame around it and we create shame around these assistive tools, I, I, I just think we create a lot of harm down the line because then people stop avoiding the things that will help them. Me,

Shannon Betts: we haven't talked about this, [00:42:00] but have you watched the show, will Trent on a, b, c?

Yes, I've also read all of the book. Yeah. Have you seen how he's using? He's, he's a detective with the Georgia FBI, and he he's dyslexic, openly dyslexic, and he uses his technology, all the assistive technology. They've shown it in the last few seasons of him using his phone to read aloud the menu at a restaurant, to take notes on his cases, like just.

You know, understand maps better and things like that. It's really, really cool and it is removing that shame yeah. Aspect of it. I love that. I think is really cool. I love that. Because you are leading a tech company, I'm sure you're really thinking like not just about today. But about tomorrow. And like we have just seen with like chat GPT and AI, just in like the last like post covid, you know, like how that has changed the landscape.

Like we're 25% way through the 21st century. You know, we were always like 21st century skills, right? So like what is the [00:43:00] next three quarters? Of the century gonna look like, what are these students, or even just the next 25 years, like what does the next generation need in technology? We can't even really dream it up with our, like my Gen X brain.

Brandon Cardet-Hernandez: Oh, I love it. I think we, this is maybe an unpopular opinion here in the us but I think what we will find. Is a much heavier focus on knowledge based skills. And so you're right, and I came up as a teacher too in this moment of like, we're building 21st century skills and in many ways, based on our current outcomes, we have proof to tell us we haven't done that.

Because we stopped focusing on the foundational skills that were needed to access 21st century skills. And the more important is like, I can't teach you the 21st century skills. They actually don't fully matter in this context. I need you to live in, I need to teach you the skills to thrive in a 21st century world and the knowledge to [00:44:00] innovate in it.

And that is why I love literacy so much because if I can get, if you can have a rich vocabulary, you will be able to innovate and, and ask the right questions and move into these 21st century skills or 22nd century skills in a way that is much more meaningful. You'll also be able in a time where. I think the greatest skill we, our young people will learn during, in this moment is how to make sense of what information is real and what is not.

And that only happens with a sophistication around knowledge. That is an understanding of history. That will be an understanding, a rich vocabulary to distinguish meaning in text so that like, yes. I will plug something into an AI and let's say eight out of 10 times it comes back and it's accurate, but I have to be able to distinguish those two out of 10 times where it's not, and that will only happen if I'm a sophisticated reader with a [00:45:00] sophisticated vocabulary and a clear understanding of history so that I can see if I can start to make sense, if it makes sense.

Those knowledge, focus, skill, focus skills are more important than. Ever before. I think they've been important, but they're more important I think. Not to belabor the point, but so for me it's, it's that sort of vocabulary acquisition. It's the fluency and phonics that we've talked about, those foundation. I need to be able to read and read quickly because I have more access to information than ever.

So that like fluency will be more important. The reading comprehension we're talking about, all of it connects so, so deeply and, and then I think it is about, it is, and it's about knowing the. Tools around me that help improve my knowledge. So like that I do feel like I have a relationship with an AI that I can ask questions to when I'm confused or lost that I know the types of video games, whether it's Mrs.

Wordsmith games that help me, I. Build my [00:46:00] vocabulary or a Duolingo that helps me expand access to a foreign language or another company I'm obsessed with, timetable, rockstar, who's gonna just like drill down my multiplication skills that like, I have these tools so that if I'm feeling behind, I know how to feel like I can catch up and grab it.

Mary Saghafi: One of the things, that I have told my students from probably my first day of teaching is that the smartest students ask the best questions. And I think that that is a time and true held notion. And if you are, you know, as you said. Really aware of what the context of what you're thinking about and laundering.

You're asking these nuanced questions, now we can actually ask those nuanced questions to an AI bot and that that AI bot can then generate even more questions for us to ask. And so questioning is actually a pretty high literacy skill. And that is really critical and [00:47:00] important and I think it always has been very important.

So I just wanted to kind of like. Back, like piggyback on that because I always started the beginning of my school year with my students. And I would say when you're in your classroom, look around the smartest people ask the best questions. You are capable of asking the best questions. And if you have a question, it's you should honor yourself by asking that because you're probably not the only person who has that question.

And so again, it comes to feeling safe and. Right, it's coming back to all of these pieces. Having connections and understanding, making connections through text, making connections through prior, prior experiences, understanding language and, and the nuances that that provides. So I think that literacy you're right, is really the key to all of this, and we cannot.

Bypass the foundational skills if we really want students to improve. Morphology is critical to [00:48:00] understanding vocabulary and being able to spell and, and doing all of these you know, complex tasks. So we're not bypassing other pieces. We're just acknowledging that these are the integral pieces to move forward.

And the other piece that I remember you saying at the very beginning is how do we. Help students learn to innovate. Mm-hmm. That part is so critical and I think this is really the answer to it. So I feel like this conversation has really spiraled back to the very beginning. And it's so helpful because I think all of these points are so essential.

I really appreciate your perspective and your. Ability to share this with such genuine love for teachers and students. And it's a joy to chat with you. I could talk with you all day long. This is fantastic.

Brandon Cardet-Hernandez: This has been really lovely and thank you. Are such a good fit

Shannon Betts: for the Reading Teachers lounge.

Like this is, like we say, we're literacy soul sisters, but we're gonna add you as a soul brother. Yeah, you're welcome.

Mary Saghafi: In the, in the fold.

Brandon Cardet-Hernandez: I'm [00:49:00] grateful to be here. I love anyone who sees. This work as deeply important and it's so clear you guys do. So thank you.

Shannon Betts: Any last thoughts? Is there anything else? Yeah, that's what Mary, we, Mary and I always ask the same thing or talk over each other, but any last thoughts while we have you on air?

Brandon Cardet-Hernandez: Any? Let me think. Let me think.

Shannon Betts: You touched on a lot.

Brandon Cardet-Hernandez: I think we did it.

Shannon Betts: I think we did too.

Brandon Cardet-Hernandez: I think so too.

Shannon Betts: We'll just say until next time, 'cause we're gonna have you back. I can't. Yeah, we would love to have you back. Thank you so much, Brandon.

Brandon Cardet-Hernandez: I can't wait to come back. Thank you.