7.7 System Changes with LaMonica Williams

Shannon and Mary welcome LaMonica Williams from Teaching Matters back to the Reading Teachers Lounge. This time they chat about professional development experiences and the most effective ways to bring about positive change in school systems. They discuss the differences between management and leadership and how to foster student-centered school improvement.

RESOURCES MENTIONED DURING THE EPISODE:

1. Changes that Stick (Kappan)
2. Teaching Matters website
3. NYC Reads
4. Student Focused Coaching  by Jan Hasbrouck and Daryl Michel *Amazon affiliate link*
5. our previous episode with LaMonica Williams
6. The Good Struggle of Flexible Specificity
7. Reading Universe
8. LaMonica's Bio & Contact Information

• Bonus Episodes access through your podcast app
• Bonus episodes access through Patreon
• Free Rubrics Guide created by us
• Finding Good Books Guide created by us
• Information about our Patreon membership

Transcript

7.7 Systems Change with LaMonica Williams 

Shannon Betts: [00:00:00] Welcome to the Reading Teachers Lounge, where you can learn on the go by eavesdropping on experienced reading teachers chatting about best practices that have helped their students grow. Mary and I, along with expert guests, share what we wish we'd studied in college, what we've discovered works with the students we teach, and what we're continuing to learn from the science of reading. 

Mary Saghafi: Learning to read is hard, and sometimes teaching a child how to read feels even more challenging. 

Shannon Betts: The Reading Teachers Lounge is here to help you get started. Navigate the right choices for your readers. Come join the conversation. 

Shannon Betts: Hello, thank you for coming back to the Reading Teacher's Lounge, listeners. And LaMonica, we're so happy to welcome you back to the Reading Teacher's Lounge. You joined us like, it feels like ages ago in the early ages of our podcast back in season three. So will you [00:01:00] please reintroduce yourself to our audience and then fill us in on the literacy work you've been doing in the last four years since we've seen you? 

LaMonica Williams: Yes, absolutely. Thank you so much for having me back. I'm LaMonica Williams. I'm the Vice President of Programs and Services at Teaching Matters. Last time we spoke, I think we spoke a lot about small group instruction and the, the work and the support we were doing with that as it pertained to literacy and supporting our earliest readers. 

Now I'm going to The work that we're most kind of enthralled in is the work of an initiative called New York City Reads and that is The New York City public school system has rolled out this initiative. That's a system wide plan to ensure all students get high quality reading instruction. 

That's grounded in the latest reading research. And so what that looks like is there's been. A set number of curriculum that schools and districts can choose from [00:02:00] and from there, we're really supporting each one of the districts in implementing that new curriculum in their classrooms. So that has been the work that we've, we've been most recently really busy with. 

Mary Saghafi: So, LaMonica, how do how do districts come and kind of, like, seek you out for support? Do you rely on, like, the test scores or, you know, how, how is it that that you come to these relationships with districts? 

LaMonica Williams: That's a good question. I think, you know, for us, historically, it's been different in terms of how people reach out to us. 

And it could be for a number of reasons, a district team, you know, in the situation that we've most recently been in. Need some support with planning and preparing for a curriculum launch. And so we work with the district teams, you know, from everything from understanding the new curriculum and the intricacies of it so that they can plan to kind of looking at their district level data and [00:03:00] understanding where the priorities are. 

We've also been contacted by school leaders who might have a particular area of focus that they'd like to support their teachers with, but we've also and then we also have some support areas called on by teachers themselves who've maybe heard of us and have identified some support areas that they would really like to bring to their school and so sometimes they connect us with their principals or their district leaders and that's how we're invited into these spaces. 

Shannon Betts: So once you are in that space, like, are y'all providing PD sessions are you doing coaching relationships like what does it look like in a, you know, week to week day to day basis. 

LaMonica Williams: Yeah, so for our district teams they meet with our leadership team and we do a lot of planning around systems and structures and thinking through their support for individual schools. 

In terms of our schools, yep, we're very much in classrooms with teachers doing coaching sessions. A lot of our work is with teacher [00:04:00] teams and that could look like co planning together. That could look like Looking at data and action planning for instruction in individual classrooms, our coaches like to do a lot of modeling just to kind of build that relationship of, I'm in the classroom doing it with your students and then of course, giving teachers the opportunity to practice as well and get some feedback. 

Our work, you know, is student centered. And so we really like to work in cycles of work that start with some student centered data point and then kind of go through the process of learning with teachers, planning with teachers, having them execute and then being able to see at the end, you know, the results from the data on whatever that student focus point was to now see like how students have improved. 

Shannon Betts: I appreciate that it starts from the data first because I think I've been, I've just, [00:05:00] I've been in the field for more than two decades, and I've seen the pendulum swing like so many times. And I have also sat through so many, not just PD sessions, but almost like year long coaching cycles of, you know, some You know some consultants that have been hired and then they're going to fix my teaching and it's just sort of pushed upon me and you know that It really, you know, it's at some point, you know, your first few years of teaching, you're like, okay, I'm open to, you know, I'm open to hearing something, you know, but after you get better at your craft, it's, it's a little harder to, you know, be open and willing to listen to somebody, especially when they're foisted upon you. 

LaMonica Williams: And 

Shannon Betts: so I do appreciate that y'all come from the student data perspective, because then it's less of a non negotiable and initiative and more of a. You know, team based approach of like, we're all doing this for the benefits of the students, [00:06:00] 

LaMonica Williams: right? Exactly. And it's important for us that we are in partnership with teachers you know, where they come to the table with their own toolkits. 

And so we really see ourselves being there to sharpen the tools or maybe to present some new tools that you might not have heard of before or used before. And so it really is important for us to. Enter this work as partners with teachers and, you know, teaching is a craft. And I think sometimes the hardest pieces can be looking at individual students, understanding their individual needs, even though you have 20 to 30 of them in front of you and then being able to plan accurately for that. 

And so that's, that's hard work and it's helpful to have a thought partner with you. And that's exactly what you know, our coaches seek to provide. 

Shannon Betts: Okay. Sharpen the tools. I've not heard that, that phrase before, but that is, that's amazing. I really, [00:07:00] really like it. And so how do your coaches like introduce themselves? 

Like where does that relationship begin? So that, that, that collaboration and trust happens, you know, from the get go and you get that immediate teacher, you know, buy in and engagement rather than the resistance. 

LaMonica Williams: Right. And for us, in, sometimes it's immediate, but sometimes it takes longer, you know, building trust and building relationships, it's not. 

It's not quick and we know that and we go in there kind of understanding that. So one of the first things that we do when we go into schools is we just go in with a listening ear. We do something called the capacity assessment where we just kind of tour the school, talk to teachers, talk to teacher teams, talk to leaders and really learn the school culture, learn the school priorities. 

learn about students. And that helps us when we start to engage in a [00:08:00] coaching conversation or relationship because we're coming from a place of understanding or seeking to understand rather than trying to, you know, impart some kind of knowledge that we think we might have. It really is just about learning and listening. 

And that's kind of how we engage in the work. We do do norm setting and kind of getting to know you protocols when we first begin. Because we want to be really intentional with how we move forward. And I think I, I mentioned this earlier, we do model in classrooms. And I think that that's really important because we are kind of putting ourselves out there. 

I sometimes don't even use the word model. I like demonstrate, do a demo lesson first, because we know no lesson will be perfect. But that gives teachers the opportunity to see kind of the coach. In action with their students. And it gives the coach an opportunity to learn about their students a little bit more and will be that much more of a helpful partnership to the teacher. 

[00:09:00] So it's not always quick. Some, some teachers, you know, have, have, you know, You kind of illustrated a similar cycle that a lot of teachers have been on with these really long you know, support cycles and we don't know where they're going. Or teachers that are been doing this for years. And so oftentimes like, it's like, what else can you teach me? 

So it's really important for us to stop, listen, learn, In any environment that we're entering first before we're able to engage in a coaching conversation or relationship. 

Mary Saghafi: I have I'm like, I've been thinking about this, but I think that there are a number of people, friends that I've chatted with who are teachers who have previously had semi traumatic experiences with administration with someone and, and they're very hesitant to, to take on you know, something that's new or, or even feel vulnerable in that vulnerable [00:10:00] state. 

And so I think that this is a common thing that happens in every school. What, what would you say to someone who doesn't have you know, a team like yours in their school, but they want to start to make change? What, what would you, what advice would you give to those who are change makers who want to kind of like you know, institute a bit of change in a positive way? 

How could somebody do that on their own? 

LaMonica Williams: For me, when I'm, when I'm thinking about change and there's something really big that I'm looking to change, I always start small and we talked about this a little bit starting with a data point. So if there's a piece of data that's connected to a change that would like to be made I would really start with kind of naming that issue that needs to be changed and pointing to the data and then being able to, from there, think through and brainstorm with other colleagues about what might [00:11:00] be the teaching moves that can potentially bring change to that particular issue. 

And then from there, I think you, you really start to, when you start to name a problem for folks and make it something that's achievable or something that seems like we can tackle this, this one thing, I think that really helps engage folks. And so an example of that might be, let's say you have a writing assignment that you've given. 

And you want to look through that and you notice that. Specifically, students are having a really difficult time of coming up with additional examples for their main idea, whatever it may be, you know, we can really think through, okay, what are some ways that we can build. Those examples and students. And for me, one of the ways you were thinking about writing is really in discussion, right? 

How do we give students more time practicing the discussion [00:12:00] habits that will then lead to them being able to say more in their writing? And so as a teacher team, you could really highlight that one problem for your teacher team. And then collectively think of ways that you want to address it and then try those things out. 

And so maybe the larger issue is that our students, you know, really need some, some intensive support in writing, but let's start small. Let's start with one specific area of writing that we really want to tackle together. And I feel like that brings people in and is a starting point. 

Shannon Betts: And does that help build that trust between the coach and the and the teacher because once that they see the student learning and making progress, then it becomes sort of like a self feeding loop, right? 

LaMonica Williams: Absolutely, absolutely right. And starting small, getting those small, quick wins is a launching pad. 

Shannon Betts: I mean, this is all of this seems very [00:13:00] similar to like Mary and I work with struggling readers mainly and they're kind of very passive and like not engaged in their own learning and we have to do a lot of relationship building and trust building for them to take risks for us because they've had such a, you know, years of failure within the school system and this, this is very similar. 

These are the exact same steps that we take to get our students to take risk and try new things. Yep. I mean, I guess teachers are just, you know, kids in adult bodies. We all are. 

Mary Saghafi: I'm so glad you brought that up, Shannon, because I think that that's, that was sort of the point that I was kind of coming to before. 

I like, there is some real trauma for some teachers You know, based around this, this concept of I'm not doing it perfectly, you know, I'm, I'm having, I'm struggling and I think I'm doing my best job, but am I failing these students? And those were real fears that teachers go to sleep with at night. And I think acknowledging that one of the worst things I think that leaders can [00:14:00] do is be hypocritical and come down on teachers in the opposite way that they would expect their teachers to come down on their students. 

So you're not going to be punitive to your students because we know that that doesn't work very well, but building them up and helping them see small successes does. And so I really appreciate your illustration of this in that regard, because I think that that's how a lot of teachers are struggling where you feel like you're not valued because you're not being treated with that value. 

And hopefully more of our You know, administrators can be coached along that way too. So let's let's talk a little bit more about the tenants and values that you all specifically work towards, because I think that continues this conversation. 

LaMonica Williams: Yes. So, excuse me, but in terms of the tenants and values and working with classrooms and teachers, and we've started to talk a little bit about it already, but We really talk about knowing your students, [00:15:00] and oftentimes when we talk about knowing students, we talk about knowing them in terms of the data, the formative or the informal assessments that you've given, but we really also encourage teachers to know their students on a personal level because we know students learn best when they feel seen, when they feel loved And so we start there, and that's very much incorporated into our work. 

And then, of course, making the and then also learning about them in terms of academics and what the data is showing us and how we can best kind of design instruction around what supports them. 

Shannon Betts: I'm thinking of kind of one of my worst PD experiences and it's sort of the opposite of those values and that I mean, I had a master's degree and I've been teaching for a long time and they didn't start with the data. They didn't even start with the observation and everything. They started with observing us. 

And [00:16:00] giving us feedback and then we got these like belittling glows and grows reports. I mean just that phrase glows and grows like makes me cringe and like brings me back to the trauma of that moment and I will tell you that that whole initiative was not sustainable. I was like I am staying away from basically every single thing that all these people taught me to do because it was such a bad PD experience. 

LaMonica Williams: Yes. 

Shannon Betts: And so how, how do you create this where it's sustainable change? And then also like, you know, you've been doing this a while. So can you give us some, you know, examples and anecdotes about how this has brought about change that is like continued for years? 

LaMonica Williams: Yeah. So I kind of going back to what you were saying, you know, I've never met a teacher who said to me, I don't want my students to learn. 

I'm okay with them not growing at all. And so I think Knowing that all teachers [00:17:00] want their students to learn and grow and you just may not have, you know, whatever, whatever is missing, whether it's the tools or whether it's The someone to come in and plan with you, or if it's just having someone to like give some ideas to and help you think through what are the next steps, right? 

So I think always coming to the table, knowing that teachers want the best for their students. And if there's. You know, ways to improve that. I have found teachers to be open to doing that as long as we're coming from a place of support. And I think that's really important to name for teachers when going in. 

This is not evaluation. We do not evaluate teachers. It's not our goal, but we want to support. And so it's asking teachers to, what do you think that you need support with? What would you like help with? And I think that's one of the ways to, like, really build that sustainability [00:18:00] when it comes to having a strong coaching relationship is really being open to hearing what teachers feel that they need and where they would like support. 

Other ways that we do that more practically is we use a lot of protocols in our work. And so what that does is that really helps of, like, when I'm no longer coaching you, You have a road map for how to do this. And so one example of that is we have protocols for looking at data and it could be different types of data. 

And so we have protocols for, you know, unpacking a module. We have protocols for lesson internalization. And we tell teachers you can use this. I'm going to show you how to use this as is. And then you're going to modify it to make it work for you and your classroom and your set of teachers. And so, but by doing that, now we have a common language of like, okay, we're coming together at a grade level team meeting. 

We have a module coming up. Let's utilize this protocol that we've used in practice and then adapted for [00:19:00] our needs. And we can do that together. And it's a really great way of new teachers coming into the practice to be able to know exactly where to start when it comes to unpacking a module, planning for a lesson or lesson internalization process. 

And of course looking at data. So those are some ways that we practically build that sustainability that lives beyond the coaching support. 

Mary Saghafi: Sorry, I was, could not unmute myself. I think that all of this is really helpful because I having that plan, especially when it's in writing is another tenant that we teach our students, you know, like use your resources, know where to go when you're stuck doing something, you don't need to reinvent the wheel. 

And I think that that like kind of concept of reinventing the wheel has been left to teachers a lot. And I think that that is. Semi problematic. [00:20:00] Teachers are very creative, very adaptable, really bright and intuitive when it comes to teaching their students. However, that doesn't necessarily mean that you have to reinvent the wheel every single time either. 

So I'd like that you keep kind of coming back to teaching as a craft because it is a craft and you have to keep, you know, You know, utilizing it. But if you're, you know, creating a sculpture, you still have a structure for doing that. You know, you still have the same tools that you're using that you can still create really beautiful things. 

So I like that a lot. I'm wondering about what are some things that you are looking for as like, as a leader in this program to to notice like the conditions that bring about successful change. 

LaMonica Williams: Yeah. So if we're thinking about kind of the systems level work that we've been doing, and as it pertains to the adoption of new curriculum some of the conditions that have really [00:21:00] been. 

Helpful in terms of making this change is, you know, districts that were able to bring teacher voice into the decision process very early on. And when they piloted certain curriculum, teachers were part of focus groups where that informed what was worked well with the curriculum, what they would change, what they needed to know more about it. 

So really doing your research and bringing teachers in early in the process when making a systems level change has been one of the conditions we have seen that has been really successful. You not only get buy in but You know, as we've mentioned, teachers know their students and they bring such a valuable perspective in making those system level decisions. 

I think the other the other condition is giving runway And being able to have a significant amount of time where [00:22:00] you're letting folks know that the change is coming you're giving them opportunities to ask questions and you're giving them opportunities to provide feedback. And so maybe you start with a cohort of teachers that have really been a part of making some decisions about the change, and then as you roll it out to, to everyone else that you do provide that runway. 

So that. Folks know, teachers know, administrators know, parents and families know that this change is coming. I think the other, two other things is one, setting up the systems and structures for support. You know, when you're creating the system level change, it doesn't happen overnight. And so having a plan for what happens in year one. 

And what does success look like? What's in year two? And what does success look like? What's in year three? And what does that success look like as you're building towards sustainability? Has been another factor for success. And then lastly just being really clear about when it comes to [00:23:00] this change, You know, specifically curriculum adoption, what are the areas in which we really want to be the same everywhere. 

And then where are the flex points, and then being able to clearly communicate that. So everybody's on the same page sometimes what we hear from teachers when this change happens is like, I don't want to do the wrong thing. So I'm just going to do this I'm just going to stick to the script because. I don't want to do the wrong thing. 

And so what we found in supporting our districts is to be very clear, like, no, this is not, and a lot of districts will say, we don't want them just teaching to the script. We want them to bring their experience into this. So just being very clear about where those decision points are for teachers. So there's less kind of, You know, there's less confusion around. 

Yes, this is a system wide change. Yes, we want everyone using X, Y and Z. But where is it that teachers can then have some flexibility? And I think that that really, [00:24:00] those four things really help to set things up for success. 

Shannon Betts: Can I ask a few details questions about like, what are the, you know, you're saying we're going to do these X, Y, Z things all together. I'm assuming it's structured literacy informed by the science of reading. What are the specific things that are for everybody? And then what are some examples of those flex point places where teachers can be more adaptive and individualized? 

LaMonica Williams: Yeah. Great question. So in terms of the structured literacy, right, like everyone's doing. Structured phonics everyone's using decodable text in our curriculum for whole group learning, we are using these particular learning targets in this sequence where you do have flexibility is in the lesson where it comes to small group if you want to adapt what's prescribed there for small groups because this is an opportunity for you to use data [00:25:00] and determine what makes sense in terms of differentiating this work for your students. 

Or it gives this anchor chart but you all from your experience know that there's an anchor chart that works better for Please, you know, as long as it's aligned to the learning objective, please feel free to make some adjustments there. These are the questions they give. We really want to ask the higher order questions. 

But if there are other questions that you feel like would make sense for your students to help scaffold the learning, please make some changes there. So those are some examples. I think every district has approached it a little bit differently. But getting down to that level of detail of what, you know, is flexible and what is not, I think is really helpful in just being very clear with folks. 

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Shannon Betts: We're here to help you and your students.[00:27:00] 

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Shannon Betts: Mary, are you going to ask something? I can't tell sometimes when you're going to say, "Okay." I also want to ask about, I think, the level of sustainability and success that y'all can have in terms of change. I bet it depends on the administrator, especially. I attended a training session recently about student-centered coaching. 

And it was very similar to this of like, you start with the data and things like that. Yeah. And I heard the term like manager versus leader, and this quote from Peter Drucker, management is doing things right, leadership is doing the right things. And so I'm sure you've seen that in the schools that you've been where these administrators might be effective managers, but are they effective leaders and can you explain kind of describe that sort of ideal, you know, kind of administrator, what are the qualities you're looking for and that administrator that's going to help bring about great change and I'm personally thinking about [00:28:00] the first principal that I was lucky enough to work with for eight years, we were a title one distinguished school for all of those years. 

Thanks. Because she was a leader and she set up the values and the practices that created sustainable, you know, change and success for our students. And she got all of us involved in the mission where we still kind of all call ourselves the E team on Facebook when we communicate and none of us have worked together for over 10 years. 

So what does that administrator look like? 

LaMonica Williams: I love that. I love that. Yes. And the administrators that I've worked with those that really, you know, are the essence of leadership, it's because they listen. It's because it's not, you know, I have this vision and we're going to drive towards that. It's, I have this vision. 

What do you think about that? Does that align with what you're seeing? Does that, you know, does that make sense for our school? It's, it's the leaders who listen and [00:29:00] Get the know that they don't have all the answers themselves. So bring others to the table again, when it comes to making those key decisions, that's leadership. 

And that's in my mind, the only way to get it right. Right. So even if you feel like you might be getting it right, because you're following a set of steps that you designed, You don't fully get it right until you get the support of those that you're leading. I think that's when you're really able to make change. 

So I, I love that quote. I'm going to use that quote. I think it's great. 

Shannon Betts: Yeah, I guess that's what that principle did. I mean, one of the things she did, this is, I mean, this has stuck with me for so many years. It's actually gotten me in trouble with future administrators, but when I became Oh, the reading intervention teacher, you know, she kind of pulled us all aside, kind of other people have been doing it a while, but it was my first year and a couple other people's first year. 

And she said, look, first off, this is, you know, some people see this as like a little easier [00:30:00] position. You don't have to do grades. You don't have to do bulletin boards. You don't have to do as many parent conferences, she said, but it is so important. Number one, y'all are The students are dependent on you to learn to read a lot of you and so you are going to be going to your classrooms every day. 

I don't care if you have a report due or things like that. You do that on your off time like to other teachers do grades on their off time. She's like you were in front of students every single day, and I got in fights with other schools later because I would get upset when they would pull me to do paperwork or they would pull me to do subbing because I'm like no I need to be there in front of the students. 

The other thing she got us to do when we had car duty. She said, y'all are some of the most important roles that we have in the school building because you were greeting the children when they walk in the door and you were setting the tone for their day. So I don't care if it's dark and it's cold and it's 6 30 in the morning, we're going to greet them with warm smiles and curiosity and interest and let them know that they [00:31:00] are welcome in our building. 

And that, I just think that probably shows you The kind of person that she was that those are the start. Those are the things that she valued and instilled in us that I continue to this day, you know, when I got that training from her. And that wasn't about any one practice or anything like that. It was more about the values of the school and the way we value the students. 

LaMonica Williams: Yeah, absolutely. You see that come through. And I think. You know, I've been a school leader and it's a tough job. And I think sometimes, you know, similar to teaching, you're just doing what you know is the next best move. But definitely, you know, always being able to bring the why. The rationale for why? 

Why do I need you to do car duty at 6 30? Why do I need you to do X, Y and Z? And I think you know, as a teacher, I appreciated when a leader would would name that firm for [00:32:00] me because it gave me a window into their vision. It gave me a window into their values. And as long as we were connected there, then, you know, it made, it made me feel like I was part of something bigger when I was asked to do certain things. 

So, I appreciated that example. 

Shannon Betts: Yeah, she also never gave us a job that she wouldn't do herself. Like, she would do breakfast clean up duty on syrup day. Which, if you've ever had breakfast duty, it is so hard. Yeah, disgusting day and you've got the, the wash rag and you're cleaning all those tables and she would do it with us and she never asked us to do a job that she didn't do herself. 

So go ahead and Mary. 

Mary Saghafi: No, I love that. I like having like a visceral memory of like what it smells like. I I, I love this and I think that we're sort of touching on this. these big leadership qualities reach out beyond and beyond. Touch the stakeholders. And I think that there are the teachers are a main state. 

I mean, the kids are our number one [00:33:00] stakeholders. The teachers come next parents and outside stakeholders. And I think that we can't forget that there is this continuing undertone that is always present in schools and what the purpose of a school is in the sense of like It being part of the community. 

And I know that we often say like a teacher or like a principal can make or break you know, the school and the community itself. And I think that that's very true, but I think that talking a little bit about these roles of management and leadership, but then also if you are not being, if you are an administrator, who's not. 

Able to really, truly come in and coach your teachers or, or really fulfill the leadership and manager. At the same time, we need to be able to bring in outside coaches that do this work and, and true support. I think Just like we say with our kids really is, is like a human [00:34:00] commodity. Like we really need to value the humans who can make this a possibility and who can really do this coaching piece, because that spreads so much faster than just putting the kid in front of a computer program. 

And not that there isn't a time and place for more practice turns, but if it's not meaningful and it's not, you know, continuously like, shared throughout the community and they understand that they can apply these skills throughout, then we're missing everybody. And so yeah, I'm not sure. Can you talk a little bit more about how you reach out to the rest of the stakeholders? 

Cause I think that that's, yeah, it's something we need to keep discussing. 

LaMonica Williams: Yeah, absolutely. Absolutely. So at Teaching Matters, whenever we, we engage in systems level work, it has to be at all three levels, right? It's at this tone. More than it's at the student level. It's at the teacher level. It's with leaders, and it's also with district leadership, because I think you really when you're going to create [00:35:00] change, you have to have all of those audiences in mind as you're designing your plan. 

And so at the district. Leadership level. It's really about helping them think through how to engage all of these key stakeholders when they're planning for them. Systems change, right, including parents as well in the community and how they're going to communicate this change and how they're going to update parents on how the change is going. 

So that's been part of our work with our district team. And then at the leadership level, at the school leadership level, it is thinking about how are you going to communicate this change? How are you going to Build the buy in. How are you going to share the rationale? How are you going to include teacher voice as you move through this process? 

And then at the teacher level, it's how do you communicate back up how you're experiencing this change? What's working for you? What's not working for you? What's working for your students? And then also helping them think [00:36:00] through the logistics of this process. In our case, it was curriculum adoption and how they're learning this new process right for teaching and this do having this new tool set. 

And then at the student level, it is really looking at that data and seeing how the students are being impacted by this change. So you think you're making one change in terms of this shift to structured literacy but it really does require and that's part of our role as coaches and even the leadership team at Teaching Matters that's involved is how are we coaching district leaders? 

How are we supporting them? How are we supporting our school leadership and teachers and students? And of course, the parents in the school community. 

Shannon Betts: We talked about the qualities that we're looking for in administrators, but I'm also curious about the qualities you're looking for in coaches that y'all hire, because I'm sure that's a special, some people that might have been successful in the classroom might not necessarily translate to being successful coaches and [00:37:00] vice, you know, maybe not vice versa. 

I don't imagine an effective teacher would be an effective coach, but What, what are you looking for in an effective coach? What are the ones that y'all have hired that have kind of been able to build the best relationship with teachers? What did, you know, what did, what are some of the qualities that they have? 

What are some of the practices that they do? 

LaMonica Williams: Yes. And I'm a little bit biased, but our coaches are amazing. They are just Top of the line and and part of it is because they have been teachers. They have been school administrators. And so they know the work very, very deeply. They've done it themselves. 

But I think in terms of coaching others, you really have to take out. This is how I did it. You can bring a little bit of that, but you have to kind of understand that everyone's approaching this work a little differently. And so you have to think big picture about goal setting, right? And so someone who is really able to support whether they're working with a leader or a teacher with [00:38:00] like identifying a goal and then being able to walk back from that goal and saying, here are the different steps that we can take to reach that goal. 

And then having to figure out. with the person that they're coaching in front of them, which of those steps is priority? So what we do is we create what we call a coaching plan and there are general templates for these coaching plans, but then a coach has to go into a school, identify the goals and modify the plan based off of, you know their capacity assessment or what they've listened and learned about the school environment and the, Folks that they're going to be supporting and so in terms of a coach. 

You really have to be somebody that is knowledgeable, right? You have to have that content area expertise and that grade level expertise. That's number one. And then two, you have to be able to coach. And what that means is being able to identify goals, see the individual you're coaching as an individual and adapt that coaching plan to meet their [00:39:00] needs. 

And then third, I always tell people you have to be flexible. We have to be flexible. Things are not going to go according to plan and you have to be able to pivot. You have to be able to slow down. If you feel like you need to slow down, you have to be able to read the room and understand that. So those would be the three things. 

Someone that is knowledgeable. A content expertise someone who is able to set goals and create a plan towards those goals. And then also someone that is very flexible and able to adapt to different situations. 

Shannon Betts: Those are, you described those really, really well. I appreciate that. And I, I tried to coach teaching kind of earlier on in my career, and I did a lot of like, this is how I did it, you know, and that's really not effective. 

You know, that rubs people the wrong way, and they can't do it the way that we do it, right? And so you do have to step back and bring it about the data and the student, and then it's more like a collaborative, how would you solve this problem, not this is how I would solve this problem. [00:40:00] Yeah. If people that we have people listening in all states and even some other countries, so they're not all going to be in New York. 

So are there some resources that teaching matters offers that anybody could use? Do you all have some resources on your website or? 

LaMonica Williams: Yes, they're on our website. So if you're able to go to teachingmatters. org, you'll be able to find them. Right on our website, and there's also a space where if you want to contact or reach out to someone just to learn more about what we do, we're happy to, to share more about that. 

Shannon Betts: Thank you. Is there anything else you want to share with our audience while we have you here in the Reader Teacher Sound again? 

LaMonica Williams: No, the only thing I would say is, you know because I know you You know, I have a lot of teachers that are listening and anytime I get the opportunity to talk to teachers, I just always like to express my deep, deep gratitude for the work that they're doing and educating and supporting our young people. 

It's invaluable work that we just feel really kind of honored to be able to support and I [00:41:00] would just say if you're, if you're in it and you're, you know, needing some support, definitely reach out. We want to, we want to keep our teachers in the classroom. We honor you all and we see the work that you're doing and I'm just so appreciative. 

So thank you. 

Mary Saghafi: It was lovely to have you with us again. You are such a wealth of information. It's it's always a joy to talk to you. So we'll make sure that we link teaching matters on our show notes and, and some of the other resources and things that we've talked about, and you can follow us on our Instagram platform and we'll share some quotes and tidbits with this, but thank you so much for joining us, LaMonica, and also thank you to our listeners. 

Thank you so much for having me. I appreciate it.