Meeting Students Needs

Shannon and Mary chat with Nancy Young and Jan Hasbrouck about differentiation and the latest updates to the Ladder of Reading and Writing.   Listeners will get a better understanding of WHY it's so important to make adjustments to curriculum, instruction, activities, and/or assessments in order to meet the various needs of their students.

RECOMMENDED RESOURCES AND ONES MENTIONED DURING THE EPISODE

1. our season 4 episode with Nancy Young
2. our 2021 episode about the updates to the Ladder of Reading and Writing (more updated have been done since then, which Nancy details in this current episode)
3. the Ladder of Reading and Writing infographic, references, terminology, and usage/permission guides
4. Climbing the Ladder of Reading & Writing: Meeting the Needs of ALL Leaners by Nancy Young and Jan Hasbrouck *Amazon Affiliate link*
5. extra resources related to the book from Benchmark Education
6. Conquering Dyslexia: A Guide to Early Detection and Intervention for Teachers and Families by Jan Hasbrouck Ph.D.   *Amazon affiliate link*
7. The Science of Reading video, with Dr. Jan Hasbrouck and ReadWA
8. Read Washington
9. Contact Nancy via e-mail: nyoung@nancyyoung.ca
10. Nancy Young's account on Twitter
11. Jan Hasbrouck's account on Twitter 
12. Join us at Educate and Rejuvenate July 2024
13. Get a free Green Chef box using our link.

Transcript

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6.17 Meeting Students' Needs with Nancy Young and Jan Hasbrouck

Shannon Betts: [00:00:00] Welcome to the Reading Teachers Lounge. Come join the conversation with other curious teachers as they discover teaching strategies and resources to reach all of their learners. I'm Shannon. 

Mary Saghafi: And I'm Mary. And together, we bring an honest and experienced point of view to the topics we cover to shed light on best practices.

Whether you're a new teacher seeking guidance, a seasoned pro looking for fresh ideas, or a curious parent, Our community offers something for everyone. So grab your favorite cup of coffee or tea and cozy up in the virtual lounge with us and eavesdrop on our professional conversations. 

Shannon Betts: Listen, learn, and immediately add to your bag of teaching tricks.

Find what works for your students with us in the Reading Teachers Lounge.

Welcome to the Reading Teachers Lounge. Mary and I are here today. We are Ending up our sixth season of the podcast and we have two very special guests here. One is a returning guest [00:01:00] and one is a new one. And these ladies are ones that we have admired their work for so long in our career and are just thrilled to have us with us in the reading teachers lounge.

So welcome to Nancy Young again. Welcome back to the reading teachers lounge and hello to Jan Hasbrook. Did I say that correctly? Your last name. 

Nancy Young: Yeah. Okay. Thank you. Thank you for having us. 

Shannon Betts: So Nancy, why not, since you're a returning guest, why don't you remind everybody, you know, the work that you do and your literacy experience, and then we'll hear from Jan.

Nancy Young: Sure. Well, I live in Canada. I'm an education consultant, but I've worked with many different ages and learning needs over the years. My focus in literacy right now is very much differentiated instruction for the wide range of learning needs. Including dyslexia, including advanced readers, and including children who have co occurring dyslexia and giftedness and ADHD and giftedness and so [00:02:00] on.

I'm the creator of the Ladder of Reading and Writing, the most current edition being 2023. And I'm the co editor with Dr. Jan Hasbrook of the new book, Climbing the Ladder of Reading and Writing, Meeting the Needs of All Learners. Thank you.

Shannon Betts: That was nice and concise. And one question I want to ask once we get into the question. So just remind me, I would like to know, like, what were the updates from when we last spoke with you in 2021 to like, what, what are the, you know, kind of small changes that you made? Cause we did an episode specifically about kind of how the, you know, original ladder of reading changed to the ladder of reading and writing, but then I want to hear about the changes that happened in the last two years.

But before, if they don't know you, they should know you, but please introduce yourself and your experience a little bit more, Dr. Jan Hasbrook. 

Jas Hasbrouck: Thank you. It's lovely to be here and to meet both of you, have a chance to [00:03:00] chat again with Nancy, my Good colleague over the last couple of years on this project that we've been doing on around the book.

My work in education is many, many decades long now I started off as a reading specialist, and that work evolved into being a reading coach. Which sent me on a whole new trajectory. That's what put me into a doctoral program where I studied and did research on the coaching model, became a professor at University of Oregon, and then Texas A& M University.

Now I work independently. I moved Back to Seattle, Washington, which is where my, my kids and grandkids live. So that's why I'm here, but I do a lot of work around the United States. I'll be in New York city next week. I do a lot of work internationally. Now I was just requested to. Help some folks in Kosovo develop some assessments in [00:04:00] their language.

They're looking at the kinds of things that are being used around the world in English, and they don't have that. I spent most of the month of March in Australia and New Zealand working with schools there. So it's, it's, I continue to be very busy and involved in helping educators. Now around the world, and when I'm really lucky, I get to be in a classroom.

I was in a classroom yesterday here in Seattle, one of the authors actually of one of the chapters in our book, I got to visit her second grade classroom and listen to kids read and watch what they were doing. So, I love, I love this work. I value it very much and I want to do everything I can to support teachers.

Nancy Young: I'm just going to add, I'm laughing because you said I was concise and I thought my husband would probably disagree. It's like, it's like, I'm off the ramble. But, but when Jan talked about the international work she's doing, that is [00:05:00] something that has been really interesting for me to, to connect with people all over the world.

It's very exciting to see this as a global effort. And, and just really interesting to see different languages. We, the infographic is now translated into Finnish and a French translation is about to be released. And I've been talking to a professor in Portugal about translating it into. Portuguese. So it is very exciting, that international aspect that I think we both find appealing.

Right, Jan? It's really, it's really Icelandic, too. When I was Oh, did I say that? Yeah, sorry. It should have been Icelandic. Yes. Yeah. No. Finish. Finish. Well, finish. Now I'm thinking that. That would be interesting. Yes. That was a nice one. Yes. Yes. That was, that was a mistake. I would be interested, too. So Yes.

Yes, yeah, they're just I have this big long list of things I still need to do. 

Shannon Betts: And [00:06:00] correct me if I'm wrong, but because it's been like a year or two since I've read Stanislas Dehany's book, but dyslexia occurs in other languages, and the brain learns to read the same no matter any language and so do those percentages on the ladder, are they consistent with the other languages?

Nancy Young: This is a question that I've been trying to find out about, and I'm really careful to kind of tell people the, the percentages are based on research that was done on the English language, and we made that clear in the book. And until recently, most of the research was done in, for, for learning English.

There is a lot more research happening in other, for other languages. Again, I have my sense, Jan and I could probably, you know, don't want to go off on it, but we could give our sense based on Aspects of the language, but the, [00:07:00] the, I would say French is very close because, because of their language, but I am very careful to say to people when they're translating it often that what is happening is they're translating it for purposes of teaching English.

Or, just for general purposes of understanding the big picture, and so as long as they are very careful with how they say that, it's still a tool that they can use to evolve their understanding of how children learn in their own language. If that makes sense, what do you think, Jan? 

Jas Hasbrouck: Yeah, those, those numbers are never meant to be precise there, as, as Nancy says, they, they help us frame the idea that, first of all, there are children with different levels of ease or general language processing ability.

That's just a fact. How many of them are, are general ideas and rather than precise, nobody should quote and say, [00:08:00] Nancy Young says that 5 percent of kids, 

Shannon Betts: yeah. 

Jas Hasbrouck: But, but as a general framework to understand that our students come to us with different levels of ease for climbing that ladder. I think it's very helpful and I would suspect that it's very similar across different languages because that has to do with biology more than the language.

The language is going to affect the ease of learning transparent, More regular languages or children who are born with dyslexia, the biological manifestation are going to find learning to read easier in transparent languages. So language plays a role, probably not in the general biological dispositions of brains and neurology.

Mary Saghafi: Yeah, I really appreciate that clarification because I think it's true and also it's important to question those. So [00:09:00] you know, if you are just looking at the ladder of reading and writing and you just take it to heart, there's so much thought put into each of the icons and symbols on the, this infographic for the wording 

Shannon Betts: and the wording is so precise.

Mary Saghafi: And I really appreciate in your book, you go in depth about what, what makes this infographic so powerful. And we have referenced it in our show many times, but maybe could you give an overview of some of the changes from the 2001 and 2023 versions? 

Nancy Young: Sure. I can do that. Excuse me. Well, I, I, I did a major update, as you know, in 2021, and I just with the book being close to being done, we were still doing a lot of editing and working on the chapters.

I wanted to look very carefully. Anything that needed changing before the book was published because the, the infographic was, of [00:10:00] course, you know, in the book and the lens for the book. And so I, I, I just looked very carefully at the wording and the features, the actual features didn't change.

It's interesting because we were, because we were just talking about that distribution of E's. And I did adjust the coloring slightly to represent what is, is referred to as the contiguous distribution, which, which would fit the, you know, no matter where children live. The other thing that I had found was, despite my efforts in 2021 to make the wording clearer so people didn't misconstrue, I still found there was some misconstruing.

So I wanted to tweak that a bit before, before it came out as part of a book. And then the other thing was that, The research is ongoing and science is evolving. And so I, [00:11:00] the word implicit that is now on a lot of reading, writing was very intentional. We were including implicit in our book, but it wasn't yet on the infographic.

So there was, the changes were also recognizing the evolving science. Part of that. Yeah. Evolving science 2 was trying to include terminology that was a little broader, so the word comprehensive was broader, and it actually was used to recognize the evolving science so that other aspects could be brought in based on evolving research and new research.

That didn't mean changing, changing terms. So, lots of, lots of thought, as usual. The, just some specifics. The purple arrow in the 2021 differentiation was last, if you looked at the order of the words. And, I wanted it [00:12:00] to be first, because I still found that people were not, Differentiating it and so I thought we need to make that word first and and it's really pointing out that we need to be supporting the learning needs of all students in the blue arrow.

The wording there was just tightened up to to basically address the same aspects in the continuum. I did, by then, have enough you know, from my reading of the research enough to give me reason to say that students in the dark green may need support for writing. I'm not going to say all, because one of the things about the latter reading and writing is the wording.

Is very carefully done so that it's, it's, we're always [00:13:00] recognizing that there will be exceptions. And I think the more I've learned myself going on. And the more I realized that we have to, we have to get across the message that there's never a hundred percent certainty. And so the words may, likely, likely, you know, that's all through the, those are through the infographic.

So I think one of the words I added to the light green was the word some. Because I, I realized I, I had been a little too certain there. So a little wording like that, that express changes in the research, ongoing research, definitely the wording was tweaked beside the color continuum. I changed the wording beside the dark green because I had had the word enrichment.

And I wanted to get across that. All children [00:14:00] benefit from enriching learning, but this was a deeper, more complex form of enrichment. So I changed to extended learning. And then as you will have seen, and I mentioned a few minutes ago, I included the word implicit beside the light green. And again, what I'm saying to people is that does not mean just these children learn implicitly, but I wanted implicit to be there as part of the conversation.

And in the time since, The 2023 update, the word implicit is, has grown and grown in getting attention in the field. So, yeah, I think those are, those are the main changes. By the way, if anybody is listening, they can go to my website and have a look at the infographic. I really encourage people to do that.

And then on my website, there is a document with the definition of terms. So if they're wondering about what I mean by a certain term, they can go on and look at that. 

Mary Saghafi: We can definitely [00:15:00] post those along with our show notes. So if you're listening, just go right in your app feed and, and you can click on those links.

So we'll make sure we do that. So the focus of this book really comes from this infographic, the, the ladder for reading and writing. And I have to commend you, Shannon and I are in agreement. This book is just gorgeous. It's very easy to use, it is very thoughtful, and very clearly concise. And I think that teachers will really come to appreciate this as an incredible reference.

I mean, even our students. Already, I, I know exactly where I want to flip to to find more information about a student who has ADHD and what are the best ways that I can reach this student to gain comprehension strategies for them. It's, it's really remarkable how well organized it is and I wonder if you'll talk a little bit about how you organize the book and how the thought process was to kind of get that started.

Nancy Young: All right. Well, why don't I just start where, where we began [00:16:00] and then Jen can take over from there. So the, as, as you've said that the, the infographic, which Katie Pace Miles recently described at the AIMS symposium as a translational framework, which I love. So I am running with that. So the translational framework began.

I was born, first created back in 2012 and has evolved. And, but what happened was I was spending a lot of time explaining, apart from doing the updates, I was, I was spending a lot of time communicating with teachers about how to best use that. And, and really it was always, there's so much there. It could be a book.

Well, I approached Jan and said, what do you think? Could we, could we write a book about my infographic? And that's, that's where, Jan, do you want to take it from there? 

Jas Hasbrouck: [00:17:00] Well, yes, and I have the idea of writing a book about the infographic was, was, was a fabulous idea that Nancy proposed. But by the opportunity for us to work together, we were able to bring in a lot of other people to make.

contributions, and we had hopes that we could, we could do that, but we were just so grateful that almost everybody we reached out to, some of these are clearly world class experts in their field said yes to us that they would take time out of their incredibly busy schedules to write a chapter. in their expertise and to write it in a way that is often for those people who spend their life doing research.

It's not the way they typically write. They're used to writing journal articles and we said this is a broad audience. This is teachers in their classrooms and parents and school board members and community [00:18:00] members. So we're going to ask you to write it in a really different way. And the kicker was, we're going to give you all of 2, 000 words to take all of your incredible knowledge.

So it has to be super concise. And that, that alone, gathering that, that information was an early process and trying to frame it so that it. It kept the original expertise of each person, but had a voice that was somewhat similar and consistent from chapter to chapter. So we worked with an editorial team at Benchmark Education, their, their division of PD Essentials, so they've done these kinds of works before and I've published other books with them and Nancy was very clear that she wanted to work with that particular publisher because of that.

The, as you called it, it's a beautiful book. It is a beautiful book. And that's one of the specialties of PD Essentials is that their team, [00:19:00] not only the editorial team, but they have a design team who spent obviously a lot of time coming up with color schemes that help with the organization. It's a book about an infographic.

And so it was very important that it be visually. engaging and visually clear that the, that the art would match what we're trying to talk about. They did a really good job with that, but the overall organization too evolved over time. It took us a while to get to this place, but the idea that the first five chapters are really an essential introduction to the whole book.

It is what the book is about, what the infographic is about, and key ideas around differentiation, instruction, and data collection. Then the rest of the book can really serve as an as needed reference. I can imagine some people reading it cover to cover, but [00:20:00] we really thought most people we would hope would read those first five chapters and then Use the rest of the book as appropriate.

Shannon Betts: So, a lot of thoughts. First off, I love how you put it. You said, you know, we created a book based on infographic, so it sort of needed to be kind of visual focus and it really is like when it came in the mail and I was flipping through it. My jaw was dropping. I was sitting at the dinner table and I was like, show my husband.

He's not an education. I was like, you've got to see this book. It is so beautiful. Look at the colors. And he goes, I would describe it as vivid. It's like, that's a good word. It really is vivid. Like the, like the illustration of the photographs are so saturated and the illustrations are saturated. It's so great.

I agree with you also how you think that people are going to be reading it. I think that understanding the big picture, those first, you know, part one, those first five chapters are really essential to kind of understanding the book. And I do want to, in a second, I want to. You know, you called it the key ideas and differentiation.

So I kind of want us to [00:21:00] sort of summarize those, but then the. Part two and three are where you can go in and reference those as a teacher, because they are like about very specific learning concerns. And like, for example, the. Child of a dear friend of mine has developmental language disorder. And the second I got the book and I've had trouble even understanding what that diagnosis is.

And so I sent my friend some screenshots of like the section where you say, you know, additional references to look at and things like that. And I was like, look at these descriptions. Do you think this is really accurate for your child? You know, it, it helped me. As a friend, even though I'm a reading teacher, it helped me as a friend understand that diagnosis a little better, I think, because like you said, they're written in that way and that broad understanding for a lot of people to understand these kind of nuanced and kind of, you know, like.

Yeah, they're kind of all reading and writing and spelling issues. But there's a lot of differences within those [00:22:00] issues. And so part two is like the exceptional needs section. And then part three is more like other concerns, which I think I like how you organize that because that's about English language learners, older struggling readers, which is really my niche.

So I appreciate it. And you also gave me a great idea. My brother is the vice president of a school board in Louisiana. So I'm going to send the whole school board. or have him with his budget give them to them. They actually, at their little board retreat at the beginning of the school year, read the Reading League's, you know, kind of defighting guide.

So they're already starting to kind of talk about, you know, and then he met with Kelly Butler to talk about what they were doing in Mississippi because they're in Louisiana. And so, but I think this would be really an easy reference for them to kind of just, you know, It's just a quick, easy read. You can pull it off the shelf and find exactly what section you're needing.

You don't have to read it cover to cover like you said. And then you have so many little like sidebars and things like that with go here for more, check this source, look at more for [00:23:00] this. And I appreciate that. Y'all just really organized it really well. 

Nancy Young: Thank you so much for all that lovely feedback. I, we really appreciate it.

It's, it's so wonderful that our vision became not just a reality, but better than we wanted. And when Jan talked about How I saw the book, it was because of her book, Conquering Dyslexia, that featured my letter of reading and writing in it. And she sent me a copy and, and I remember when I read it, I just felt so positive.

I felt this is really valuable information presented in a way that's really welcoming. And the children were smiling and, and it was color and it was all these wonderful things. And so I said to her, That's what I want for our book, and it is interesting because most books aren't done in color, color is very expensive, [00:24:00] and most books don't have art like we had, and you probably noticed the art is very intentional, everything, you know, every photograph, every piece of art was carefully chosen.

But one thing that you, Jan and, and, and Shannon, you both commented on was the, the ability for people who don't have a big background to pick this up. And we really wanted it. And that was something we asked our contributing authors to do was to write it for a broad audience. And because there are so many people involved in literacy now.

But yet people are people are making decisions often and they really don't have a lot of background and we don't expect them to that isn't you know why they're where they are and their skills, but this is a book that somebody can read to be able to inform. their decision making in a way that, you know, we just don't think there, there have been [00:25:00] books, there isn't a book like this out there.

So I'm really glad that you see that. And we really are so appreciative to the, to the contributing authors who worked with us as the book evolved. And then to the team at Benchmark, who just put it all together in a way that Even stunned me when I first saw it. I was just going, wow. So, and I'd seen the PDF, but when you hold it in your hands, I get that same feeling.

And my own family went, oh. Well, 

Mary Saghafi: thank you. Of course. I, I think that. The, the really great core to the beginning of the book shares, you know, this is the, this is, this is what this infographic is sharing. And now we're going to tell you even more, because I think on our journey for the, the science of reading, you know, We've, we've had to adjust some of our teaching and knowing how to adjust your teaching is really the battle I think that most teachers are facing right now.

And in your [00:26:00] book you give very specific and clear outlines for what does differentiation look like? What are those teacher tweaks that need to be made? Because what you're doing is likely good. How can we make it better? accurate and evidence based based on what we're talking about. So let's chat a little bit about the differentiation in this book.

And how did teachers do it realistically? And if you could just define what does differentiation actually mean?

Nancy Young: Well, 

Jas Hasbrouck: the message, yeah, the message of the ladder overall really is that all that this The process of learning to read and write is a journey akin to climbing a ladder that almost all children very, very close to all children can can make progress up that up that ladder, but their journey is going to be different.

So the differentiation is that that intersection between [00:27:00] a teacher knowing what the journey entails. and knowing her students or his students enough to anticipate what the what their journeys are going to be like. We very much strongly because of the complexity of literacy recommend simple effective, appropriate assessments to be done.

I, I spend a lot of time in that world, the data world, the assessment world, and I always want to acknowledge that it's not just collecting more data. In fact, I think most schools are actually collecting too much data, a lot of it redundant, a lot of it. not useful for decision making. So the data chapter that I wrote and contributed to this book was really, I hope, had that message.

As a professional, you're going to need data on where your students are in this [00:28:00] journey of acquiring reading, writing, and spelling. You need that kind of data. You need to get the tools that will help you. Answer important questions as quickly as possible. And then from that data and from your experience and knowledge and support from coaches and other people.

This is not a one person job. make decisions about what that child needs in, in the next step for instruction and make decisions if your decision is correct. Is the, is the work working is the term that we use about progress monitoring. So differentiation is that, is that intersection of informed decisions about individual children.

And then we have a whole chapter about how. to do that realistically in the real world, because you don't have one child at a time. You don't have five children at a time, unless you're a specialist. You have to make decisions about [00:29:00] 20 children, 19 children, 34 children, depending. And so those decisions have to be realistic too.

We don't, we don't, we acknowledge that classroom teachers are not going to individualize. instruction for each individual child. We have to group children, we have to, we have to do our best, but in any classroom there, there often are groups of children or We also are big fans of schools taking a cross classroom organizational strategy, because you may have a single child, perhaps, who is so advanced in their reading that they, their needs, instructional needs, would be very difficult to to respond to and provide for in a single classroom, but maybe down the hallway, perhaps in a different grade level, there may be just the right place for that student.

So it's, it's, it's a complex decision, but it is the right [00:30:00] thing for children. And there are practical ways to do all of those pieces. 

Shannon Betts: I love that you brought up the data informed instruction. We had an episode earlier this season we called date your data, which is a phrase that I started to. That's what I called it when I was in second grade because I agree with you.

There's like too much data and I would sit in these data meetings and I was so comfortable. Yeah. It was just such a waste of time because like they would say, you know, how many kids got this question wrong? Or what was the percentage? Or what was the score on this benchmark? And that was all it was. And I would say, well, can we talk about why they got it wrong?

Can we talk about next steps and how we can use this data? And they were like, no, no, no, we don't have time for that. We have to go answer some more questions about all that. The other test they took and what to me date your data is like less data, but you look at it more and more and more and you mine it for learning information so that then you can make decisions.

And like you said, like, it's almost like you're a tour guide planning [00:31:00] that journey for the student of, you know, how much explicit instruction do they need or how much extension and challenge do they need? And the data is what provides that because we can't drill open and look at their brain, you know?

Mary Saghafi: Yeah, I think that's a really valuable point, too. And what it holds us accountable to is, as professionals, do we understand what we're trying, where we're trying to take our students? And so, you know, as a special education teacher perspective, I really appreciate this book because I know that I can work with a 10 year old student who is so young, still very much at the very beginning stages of reading, but I need to progress through each of these stages in order for her to, you know, continue growth.

And I have to continue to monitoring that with data. And the difference being, she needs a lot of different doses, a lot of different explicit instruction, and she needs it. brought to her in a different way. And so [00:32:00] this is, this is where I can pick up your book and say, okay, well, we see that, you know, she is a student who I can just say, she's, she's just, she has a lower IQ.

And what I need to do is really make sure that I am addressing All of the things that we need. And to do that, I love that you give these scripts of how reinforcement might look in with a student who needs a little bit different expectations. And so not only is this a fantastic book for a general population, but also as a special education teacher, it's a Reaffirming to be able to bring this evidence or, or even just a conversation sample starter of, well, this is what I'm working on.

And it may take longer, but this is how I know what I'm doing is working. And I think that that part is so important. And it's Often differentiation is, well, everybody needs different things. Well, yes, we need to know that, but what's the next piece? And so with the data, that's exactly what [00:33:00] we're speaking of too.

Great, we can talk about it and what that number is until we're blue in the face, but what does it mean to actually get the student to do it? Shannon and I have started the podcast because we said, we know how to teach reading. We can make readers better readers. We don't know how to take non readers and make non readers readers.

until we've really approached this whole journey. So for me, reading your book, that's really what I took from it. This is the next step. This is, yes, you're noticing all of these observations, and Here's the next thing to do, or here's your starting place to begin and start your journey of understanding what these observations lead to next.

So yeah, I really, I wanted to just kind of elaborate on, on how that's how I would use the book from my perspective. And even though, you know, I've been teaching students with dyslexia for a very long time, I feel like I've had a lot of experience. It's still valuable to be able to look back. back in this book and see how [00:34:00] the needs of students are really all the same.

You just need to give it to them in different doses. 

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Shannon Betts: Hey, Reading to Teachers Lounge community. It's Shannon here and I'm excited to let you know that tickets are on sale now for Educate and Rejuvenate. This is an event we took part in last summer. And it's happening again this summer. It's a virtual teacher and homeschool parent event hosted by wife teacher mommy.

This year it'll be happening on July 16th We choose to take part in this event because Educate Rejuvenate is a one of a kind experience designed to help you learn new teaching skills Manage stress effectively and improve your overall health and wellness. With a diverse range of workshops, sessions, and activities, you'll have the opportunity to explore various teaching topics, a lot of literacy related ones, in addition to helping you with mindfulness, self care, communication, and more.

Join us for our session about Literacy, Scope, and Sequence, and we'll also be participating in the [00:35:00] live events and the panel about literacy. Mary and I know that the past few years have been challenging for many of us in teaching, and that's why this event is more important than ever. It's a chance for you to take a break from the daily grind, rejuvenate your mind and body, and connect with like minded individuals who share your passion for growth and learning.

You can check out the link to purchase your ticket and find more about the event in our show notes on your favorite podcast app, or you can go on our website at readingteacherslounge. com backslash quick links, and you'll find the information there. We look forward to seeing you in July.

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Nancy Young: Yeah, same could be defined in different ways and different doses, but well, Jan can speak to the doses, but I'm thinking of the continuum and implicit learning and explicit learning and, and. The, [00:36:00] the, the reality that some children learn very implicitly. And again, I feel like that's really become a part of the conversation recently, but that was very much a part of my book when Jan talked about that child who's ahead.

And, and so me, if they're already reading, it's different from teaching them to read. And I think that's what we really try to bring out. And, and it's very rare. Well, I don't know of another book that has A chapter on child, children who are intellectually disabled. At the same time, it has a chapter on children who are advanced in reading, who may be three grades ahead.

And, but this is, this is what teachers have in their classroom. And this is what is represented by my ladder of reading and writing. And so what we've done, that was, you know, the whole thought process behind creating the book was, look at all the different, needs we have and what is the same [00:37:00] and what is different.

What instructional things will be, you know, a parallel and what will be things that, that will be different. So for example, gifted children with, you know, a higher IQ are going to process more quickly and Things like cognitive load are coming in the conversation. We didn't have it. We might have it in a revision in the future.

But, you know, different, different instruction for, for children based on, it's really needs based. Which is, which is, I think, reassuring for teachers to know, Oh yeah, that's what I, that's what my gut said. And we're saying, yeah, that, that's what, that's different children need different things. Yeah. Oh, and before Jan, if Jan's going to talk about dosage, I just want to, I think somebody mentioned the word observation.

And that was one thing that, that Jan and I talked about a lot. And I was very reassured myself by Jan. Who's a, who's a guru [00:38:00] in data to say, it's okay to observe. If you've got a child who's clearly reading ahead, clearly advanced, we are going to measure and monitor in different ways, using different tools.

And the fact that the, a lot of the tools that are being widely used and recommended, are not. were developed for, to find children who were at risk, who were struggling. And that was really good for me to see because so much of my focus now, I've, I've done just about everything, but with advanced readers, we need to be using different tools, but we also need to recognize students that are, sorry teacher judgment.

And I feel like we've lost that recently that teachers are not being given, being given credit for their own judgment. And if you have a child who's clearly reading, they don't need that, the measuring of foundational skills. And we want to give permission, you know, give teachers credit for, for a judgment and then they choose [00:39:00] what is appropriate and, and so on.

So I just wanted to say that that's a very, that's part of the conversation the advanced readers have just been missing. from the conversation, and I'm really trying to make it out there, and I appreciate Jan's support in, in getting, informing educators and, and validating what parents see, and, and even parents getting, you know, what, what they see at home, so.

Okay, Jan, the dosage. 

Jas Hasbrouck: Well, that's another use of, important use of the term differentiation. We differentiate, we differentiate data collection. And I use an analogy often around educators as physicians, the, the general, the GP physician that you go to once a year, if you're lucky enough to be that healthy, the, the data that that GP collects.

and usually universal screening. They're the kinds of things that blood, everybody gets their blood pressure taken. Everybody gets their height, weight [00:40:00] measured. Everybody gets a cholesterol check. That's universal. But if you're well, that's it. You don't need more data collection. You don't need to have a liver biopsy and an MRI and.

It's wonderful that physicians have those tools, but those are differentiated and it has a perfect analogy to what we should do in classrooms, minimal assessment on children until there's a need for more data. And as we go down the continuum, the amount of data does need to increase. And so differentiating instruction based on differentiated assessment.

Shannon Betts: I like that explanation of like the universal screener versus the diagnostic where like those specialist doctors are trying to diagnose, you know, is it a tumor? Is it a blood imbalance or whatever? And so they are running all those tests. And so as the teachers, we could be running those tests on the kids that we're concerned about, but not necessarily [00:41:00] everybody.

Nancy, I also appreciate, I'm going to use this phrase that sounds, it's going to make us all cringe, but no child left behind, but like what, what I mean by that, Nancy, is that you give equal care to every child, no matter where they are on the ladder, you know, and like, it's, even if you only have one or two kids on your class that are at the, you know, most red level or the most green level, and you're their teacher, It's not okay for them to just sort of be stagnant like everybody needs to grow when they're under your care and so you're going to do whatever it takes to get to help them grow and provide their unique needs.

And I like that you also said it's meeting their needs. I mean, I think that's why my instruction look different every single school year. Because, I mean, because I had different kids every year, like there was, literally, I would, I would find stuff in my file cabinet, and I'm like, oh, I did this five years ago, it was a great activity, why haven't I done it again?

But it's just because it was almost like I was a little bit starting from scratch, even though I had my experience, because I had new kids [00:42:00] every year, and they all had unique needs. 

Nancy Young: Yes, yes. Thank you. Yeah, and, and I think that that is something that con is concerning me recently is I think teachers are thinking that they have to follow one thing, that one thing is going to apply.

There's a lot of whole classroom instruction happening right now, and I'm saying to teachers, you're going to be providing what, what they need and maybe something you've got is appropriate. For students who are in the light and the dark green area of the continuum, it might not be appropriate for students in the red area of the continuum.

But you don't need to, don't worry, don't throw away everything. Don't just swing and throw away everything, because it is going to be need dependent. And teachers, like you were saying, have a lot of, and new teachers are developing, and even new teachers from their training, they have all sorts of information.

So. What [00:43:00] can you use appropriately for whom? And the for whom needs to be at the beginning. For whom is this appropriate? For what reason? Why are we using it? And I think we're, the book kind of turns around what, what some people have been perhaps thinking, you know, that they should shift to the whole class, everybody getting the same thing.

Shannon Betts: Is it because all of those curriculums are coming out maybe that are more aligned with science of reading? And so, you know, these curriculums are sometimes getting mandated maybe, and then, but they're not taking the time. As maybe administrators as school teams as grade level teams to say What can we use appropriately and for whom and how much of it should be?

Nancy Young: And maybe that's the example of everybody at the top needs to read our book, because if you're going to be involved in decision making, mandating, do you [00:44:00] understand the range of ease? And do you understand what's, what's needed? And that is, that is a concern. There is a lot of swing happening being described as, you know, this term science of reading that is, you know, going to be delaying some children if it's not implemented appropriately with differentiation.

I mean, differentiation is the key that the whole infographic, what you're using doesn't align to that. Then You know, if you can say every single child in that class is in a certain area of the continuum and needs everything the same, then you could justify it, but most teachers do not have a classroom that has every learner the same.

I don't think that exists. 

Shannon Betts: I'm picturing like a second grade classroom that's getting 20 minutes of an unnamed structured phonemic awareness program. I Like every student doesn't need that, right? Every student doesn't need [00:45:00] 20 minutes of that explicit phonemic awareness. instruction every single day, but maybe the school adopted it, and the program has really good reviews, and I actually like the program.

I've used it myself, but I just don't think that every student needs the same amount of it. Students, like you said, we might be holding some of the more advanced readers back by giving them such a large amount of structured literacy when they already know those skills. And we might be giving them too many foundational skills and too much of the lower level explicit instruction.

So, I like that you added the word implicit, because in there... 

Nancy Young: yeah, I think too that, that with, with people adopting certain programs, I think that there's Well, it's a, it's a myth that they'll be fine, those who are advanced, that they'll be fine, because that is a myth that, that the world of gifted education has been trying to get rid of for a [00:46:00] long time.

But what, what, what, if you look at in the context of progress, and if you say, well, they're going to be fine. If they're not progressing in a way that's appropriate for where they should be, they're actually being delayed. So I've read, you know, research in the gifted world of, of children who don't progress, they progress more in the summer when they're allowed to read.

And, and so I think we need to be so careful. That we are not unwittingly delaying children, but that is really what's happening. If a child isn't progressing based on their rate of, you know, ability and their, their ability to learn more implicitly and their, you know, then Then we're then we are delaying them 

Shannon Betts: and I've been the last few places I've worked.

We've been using the map assessment by N. W. E. A. And that is an assessment that measures progress and [00:47:00] growth. And it's expecting even those students in the blue and green to progress every year or else your map scores aren't going to be that good. So I think that is really important for us to recognize.

Mary Saghafi: I think it also extends our conversation a bit to the fact that we need to understand what the data is telling us. And so, you know, if, if there's a flat line in growth for a student who is an accelerated reader, what, what can, and how can, Can the teacher then support that student? And I think that teachers are often lacking those answers and sometimes lacking the support from other colleagues or in the school or support staff for the teacher to know what the next steps are.

And so I think that this at least ignites that conversation about what to do next. Because I will say I was, I'm very lucky my younger daughter actually. Her teacher at our last conference was so clear and concise and broke down exactly [00:48:00] how she got these students who as kindergartners were in the 99th percentile for reading.

How did she actually get those students to make progress and growth? And they were making growth. And part of it was that she accelerated their learning during an independent learning times. She would seek out first and second grade reading Center activities, and she was using those to make sure that in small group, those students were working cooperatively to do that.

I've never heard it explained, and let alone never heard it explained in a parent conference before either. And so I have to really commend her for that. But I don't think that those types of conversations are very common in schools. So. 

Nancy Young: And part of the, the, the issue that, that I have read is when they've done teacher surveys, teachers are, are, they say that they feel pressured and understandably they're, if they feel pressured to support the students for whom it is more [00:49:00] difficult.

That's, you know, that's the pressure they're getting from their admin. That's what they've learned in their training, and so they actually don't feel like they have permission. to, to address the needs of students who are more advanced. And then they don't learn about how to, so that is an exceptional, you know, I'm glad that you've got that experience.

But an example I'm thinking of is teaching spelling. You know, sometimes children are sitting in phonics lessons and teachers are thinking that this is because advanced readers need spelling. And what I'm trying to say is, Are you teaching reading or are you teaching spelling? Because if they can already read, your focus is, is, is going to be different for teaching.

You're using spelling instruction that is based on a reading ability versus learning to read. And so we need to kind of separate that out.

Shannon Betts: Ladies, we could chat with you and pick your brains about differentiation for [00:50:00] hours and hours and hours, but I know that your time in the Reading Teacher's Lunch is limited. So we're just going to have to say, if y'all want to know more for Nancy and Jan, y'all are going to have to read the book and keep it on your desk and your bookshelf and you can use it as an ongoing reference.

Do you want to share any kind of final thoughts about differentiation and what you would like any kind of reading teacher, literacy coach, we have some pre service teachers listening, parents listening, what would you like them to know?

Nancy Young: Do you want to go first, Jen, or do you want me to go? Okay, well, I'm glad you said parents, because they should go to my website because we have an endorsement from a mom of five children, and she really believes this information is important for parents, but we really, in the book, promote a collaborative approach, and I, I agree with that.

I feel so strongly that we need to work together for differentiation. It is so important for our students [00:51:00] with, with challenges for our students who are advanced. We need to be working with parents. We need to be working with occupational therapists that they involve. There's such such a division. And so in writing for the broad audience, our book is intended to say, you know, let's work together, folks.

No matter what your role is. We want everybody to have a voice and that is actually how we think students are going to move forward more quickly wherever they are in the continuum. 

Jas Hasbrouck: Well said Nancy. I was, I was basically going to say the same thing. This is too hard to do as a one person job and we need to figure out in schools how to provide support across the board for, for teachers to, to be more and more successful with this very challenging aspect of learning.

Shannon Betts: Nancy Mary is always telling people, almost on every episode, go talk to the speech therapist in your building, go talk to the occupational therapist in your building. [00:52:00] They took different classes than you did and they are a wealth of information that you might not even realize. Well, thank y'all so much.

Where can people find you online? Nancy, your website is nancyyoung. ca, correct? 

Nancy Young: Oh, you're on mute. Sorry. Yes, I think that's it. Okay. Nancy young. ca. Yes, you'll put the link put maybe put the link in your Oh, absolutely. 

Shannon Betts: And also, and actually, and the direct link to the, to the, the most recent ladder, 

Nancy Young: and go to the page itself, because that has the link for the terminology don't go to the PDF.

Yeah, thanks for sure. Yeah. 

Shannon Betts: And Jan, what about you? We are always, we always link to your YouTube video about the science of reading because that one's extremely helpful. 

Jas Hasbrouck: Yes, I do work with an organization here in Seattle called Read Washington. So we have some wonderful videos from some of our webinars there.[00:53:00] 

I'm active on Twitter to this day. So that is a place where on almost a daily basis, there's some interesting. Conversations and new understandings and links to research articles. And yeah, so Twitter is a good place at Jan Hasbrook is a good. 

Shannon Betts: Thank you. It will always be Twitter to me. It's never going to be X.

I 

Jas Hasbrouck: know. 

Shannon Betts: I'm on social media too. 

Jas Hasbrouck: Twitter. Twitter. com. So they, yeah. 

Shannon Betts: Exactly. Where are you? Where's your favorite social media hangout, Nancy? Nancy. 

Nancy Young: Oh, I'm, I'm, I kind of go back and forth between Facebook and Twitter depending on my time, but I'm not really super active, but you know, I try to be there every few days.

I also want to encourage people to go to the Benchmark website for the book because there is supplementary information that can help you. And there, there are going to be more blog posts in the future relating to the book. And I think that they always put the links there for supporting information. [00:54:00] So there, there are resources there as well.

That's good to know. And 

Shannon Betts: I mean, I guess, has Amazon updated their stock? Because like, I couldn't buy the book on Amazon. Y'all sold out so quickly. I had to buy it for Benchmark. 

Nancy Young: Yes, it's, I think they're in stock now. It took a while. The big issue is trying to get them to people in other parts of the world.

Okay. You know, when Amazon isn't working for them. So we're working hard to get it to places like Bangladesh. 

Shannon Betts: You have a hit on your hands. It's a good problem to have. 

Nancy Young: Yes. Yeah, it's very exciting. And Africa, Togo, Africa. Yeah. Yeah. Thank you so much. It's such a privilege for 

Mary Saghafi: having you here. Yes. We're just so ecstatic to meet you and, and continue to promote your book because this is really a lovely resource.

And I think it's going to be something that is going to be very commonplace on all teachers desks. And I really appreciate [00:55:00] the hard work you all put into it. 

Jas Hasbrouck: for having us today. 

Mary Saghafi: Thank you. 

Jas Hasbrouck: It was a lovely conversation. 

Mary Saghafi: You're always welcome back in the Reading Teachers Lounge.