Mary and Shannon chat with Dr. Molly Ness about her new book Read Alouds for All Learners. Molly shares how teachers should intentionally plan their read alouds, with thought put into the vocabulary instruction, the purpose for reading, the think aloud process, and engagement and extension activities for students after reading. Listen to this episode for TONS of ideas from our guest about how to get the most learning out of your read aloud experiences.
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Mary and Shannon chat with Dr. Molly Ness about her new book Read Alouds for All Learners. Molly shares how teachers should intentionally plan their read alouds, with thought put into the vocabulary instruction, the purpose for reading, the think aloud process, and engagement and extension activities for students after reading. Listen to this episode for TONS of ideas from our guest about how to get the most learning out of your read aloud experiences.
RECOMMENDED RESOURCES AND ONES MENTIONED DURING THE EPISODE
6.7 Read Alouds to Boost Comprehension with Molly Ness
Shannon Betts: [00:00:00] Welcome to the Reading Teacher's Lounge. Come join the conversation with other curious teachers as they discover teaching strategies and resources to reach all of their learners. I'm Shannon.
Mary Saghafi: And I'm Mary. And together we bring an honest and experienced point of view to the topics we cover to shed light on best practices.
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Find what works for your students with us in the Reading Teacher's Lounge.
Mary Saghafi: Hi. Welcome to the Reading Teacher's Lounge. Today we are going to be talking about read alouds to boost comprehension, and we have a special guest today, Dr. Molly Ness. And we are so excited [00:01:00] to meet with you and chat and learn about all the things that you can share with us.
So thank you for being with us today.
Molly Ness: Well, thanks for having me.
Shannon Betts: Molly, can you share with us? We just recently met you in the online sphere. So if anyone listening is not familiar with you, can you tell us about your teaching experiences your education, how you were trained as a teacher and then what's your current role in literacy?
Molly Ness: Sure. So I started my career as a classroom teacher out in Oakland, California. I did teach for America thinking I was gonna kind of pause on my way to law school. And I always joke that however many years, 25, 30 years later, my father has Finally accepted that I'm not going to law school but quickly recognized that public education and specifically literacy was a social justice issue that I really cared about, but I needed to know a lot more.
So I came back east and did a, Doctorate in reading education at the University of Virginia. And then I took a position [00:02:00] as a professor at Fordham university, which is the graduate school of education is smack in the middle of, of New York city, probably gosh, 20 blocks. 15 blocks north of Broadway and Times Square and such.
And I spent 17 years there as a professor. I mostly was responsible for early career and pre service teacher education teaching the literacy methods courses, but also did a fair amount of work with doctoral students. And I, I, so I always. I think of myself as a teacher of teachers. I do a fair amount of work as well with literacy organizations.
I sit on the board of directors for the International Literacy Association, as well as I'm a chapter founder for the Reading League, the New York State chapter. And I The way that I think about my career is I read about reading and I write about reading. When I was a doctoral student, I learned what we are now calling the science of reading.
It [00:03:00] was the way that I was trained. Only then we didn't call it. The science of reading, we just called it evidence based research or scientifically based research. And so I look at this particular moment in time as really exciting when there's so many conversations about reading instruction podcasts and documentary films and social media and such.
As much as I am excited about this time, I'm also a little, a little frustrated sort of like what took the rest of everybody so long to catch up. I mean, you know, you look at the data and the data is stagnant and it has been that way for too long. So I'm grateful for this time, but I also am cautious that We have to recognize it took us a long time to get here.
It's also going to take a long time to make forward progress. So I hope we have the stamina and the patience and determination to really stick with effective reading instruction more than just as a short term fix.
Mary Saghafi: Yes. [00:04:00] And big claps because yeah, absolutely. And that's, that's really what we have been focusing this season, last season, and the previous season on.
And I think that what you nailed. It was our call for, you know, things were just not working in the classroom for us. And we, we were questioning, you know, what, what is it that that's the miss? So something that I love that you encompass in your new book, your new book is called read alouds for all learners.
It really coaches teachers through how to use read alouds as that scaffolding, the tool to really help students understand and use their metacognition as they're reading through and how to use the strategies for using engaging text. So I, I really love that. So, so let's talk a little bit about, about the read alouds.
How, how can the read alouds then foster comprehension? Let's kind of dig right in.
Molly Ness: Sure. Well, sort of the backstory of the book is I was down the, the, the [00:05:00] rabbit hole of social media and following some conversations about the science of reading and, and saw this conversation that said that the, there's no room for read alouds in the science of reading.
And immediately was just taken aback and wanted to, you know, post and respond and knew that was probably not a productive use of my time. So instead, really dug into the research around read alouds which is a long standing body of research and also has some really interesting, compelling new information.
We know that read alouds are really the, the prime way to support students language comprehension. There's been so much attention. On the word decoding components of the science of reading of of what I often call lifting the words off the page phonics and decoding and site recognition and such. And if we don't.
Explicitly address language comprehension, the ability for for students to understand and make [00:06:00] sense of what they're reading, then we're not really going to see any gains in in at not only our students reading scores, but also their ability to proficiently read text. So a read aloud is So powerful because it is the way to expose students to sophisticated vocabulary.
It is the way to enhance and build background knowledge and exposure to language structure. And all of those things that are on that top part of the unconstrained skills in in Hala Scarborough's reading rope. So not only is there a place for read alouds, but I actually think they are. Non negotiable pre k through grade eight classrooms.
They are a daily non negotiable. They're a get to do, should do, want to do, have to do. And just as you said earlier that when you think back to some of your teaching and things weren't resonating, my read alouds were not resonating. Either. I [00:07:00] use them as sort of a, a calming time. My kids would come back from lunch and recess and were crazy and just needed sort of to calm down and refocus, but I didn't explicitly plan them to, to bring out the instructional opportunities that the book presented.
And so that's what this book that I wrote is meant to help teachers do.
Shannon Betts: And it really does. Like I am. I'm guilty of that too. Like I use read alouds to calm them down after specials. And then also as a big community building experience in my classroom. And I mean, even my former students from 20 years ago will still come to me and contact me on Facebook and say, remember that book you read aloud now it's a movie.
So, I mean, it, it did, it did its job in that respect, but what you, first off, you know, so much research. I mean, the way you explain the research in this book, it's like, it just, You've read a lot of stories. I can tell a lot of research studies and then you just explain it in a way that makes it so [00:08:00] practical and then you bring an intentionality to the read aloud plan and so it's not just this haphazard like little piece of your classroom and instruction but it's a big piece of your classroom instruction and then you're able to weave so many standards into the experience and I just appreciate this book a lot that you You break it down in exactly how to do that as a teacher and not just say, oh, you should do it, but this is
how to do it.
Molly Ness: Well, I appreciate that because, yeah, when I think back to my read alouds, my planning was how many pages I was going to cover each day. So I would spend, you know, like many teachers, I would spend Sunday afternoon sort of thinking about the week ahead and I would look back at my chapter book or picture book that I was reading and say, all right, you know, Tuesday, I'll probably cover this page to that page.
And I was surprised when I found research that surveys early childhood classroom teachers and 50 to 70 percent of them don't plan their read alouds. [00:09:00] And by no means, am I saying, you know, teacher shaming teacher blaming I did the same thing. But what we know is that When those read alouds are just focused on sort of what text you're going to cover and how many pages we we miss instructional opportunities.
We see teacher discourse as more surface level. We miss opportunities to enhance comprehension. And so. I really started to think about particularly about what I needed to do prior to my read alouds to make them impactful, powerful something that can engage kids after the text is done and Yeah.
relevant to all content areas. That's a a big thing that I try to, to, to push is that we have to sort of get past the notion that a read aloud is like we're in our rocking chair and it's 15 minutes of our kids just wrapped attention in front of us on the carpet because the seventh grade teacher can read aloud from a speech of a [00:10:00] historical fiction character that they are looking at or a gym teacher.
As they're starting a new a new unit on volleyball, well, you know, perfect time to read aloud from the rules of the Volleyball Association or a science teacher talking about climate can read aloud from newspapers, which are featuring similar stories. So there's so many ways to integrate it that it doesn't have to be sort of what we often in our mind picture as like the ideal read aloud.
Mary Saghafi: Yeah, I really appreciated that, that part. In, in your book this time. And not only are you just saying, Hey, this is what what art teachers and PE teachers should be doing, but you also give examples of what this looks like and how you can actually engage. So I really appreciate it, especially I would say like in the art content area, how you can take an excerpt from a book and have kids work on visualizing, for example, and have the [00:11:00] students like then sketch and draw what you were, you know, what you just read and how that is a content skill that applies to learning to read and using comprehension strategies in a meaningful way in a different area that's not just with.
The reading , that, that you would say, and then not only that it brings in other interests. And so not only are you giving a super great suggestion, but I think that most teachers, because we've gotten feedback from a lot of teachers about this, there's so much joy in the read aloud. Many of us. You know, think back to our own, you know, schooling career and think, Oh, I just loved it when my teacher read this book.
And I think what we sort of touched on at the beginning was true for me too. Oh, that was a nostalgic book. I would really like to read that to my students as well. And it doesn't always hit the same way with different generations too.
Shannon Betts: You bring up that in the book where you said you tried to read the hatchet with your students and it kind of fell short.
Molly Ness: Mm hmm. I remember [00:12:00] it clearly and I'm so glad that you brought up the point about joy because we as teachers often just adore the read aloud and our kids do as as well. As you said earlier. There are kids that you connect with years down the road who are like, I remember, and I had that experience in my childhood, it was Miss Fagan, she read roll Dolls, BFG.
That was one of the ones I read, . And that's not, and you know, kudos to you. 'cause that is not an easy book to read aloud because there's so much made up language that you have to decode. I was interested in. Research that I found that showed that something called the decline at nine, which this research term comes from scholastic and their kids and family reports.
And what we see is that read alouds at home and at school tend to decline at the age of nine. So right around. Third and fourth grade. Parents and teachers think read alouds are too babyish or kids [00:13:00] can read on their own. So there's no need for them. And I think about that as a parent. I think about that as a teacher.
And I, yeah, I was guilty of that. But what we know, which I think is even more powerful is that kids say, I wish they didn't stop reading to me. I wish the read aloud continued. And so I think once we know that It is that, yes, powerful, impactful, you know, learning opportunity, but it's also a way to build a community for kids to associate reading and joy.
It is one of the best ways, as shown in research, for kids to start identifying themselves as readers and to build their independent reading motivation. I'm all for all of the research that shows, you know, the academic benefits, the linguistic benefits, but we also have to be mindful that there are socio emotional benefits and those are equally as powerful as, as the ones that are just looking at sort of quantifiable [00:14:00] skills.
Mary Saghafi: I'm so glad you touched on that piece because I think that that is so true. I remember it was a non academic camp that I was in in middle school. And I remember that we used picture books as a way to talk about about social and emotional learning. And I think we might have read like the Rainbow fish or something like that.
And even as like a 13 year old, it hits so differently. And I remember then, you know, in my college studies to going back and reading children's literature and it hits differently at the different ages. So I think that it's okay to re introduce books. For social learning purposes and and really like engaging in those conversations as well.
And I love that you kind of talk about that. And then you're super thoughtful in the plan when when you go about doing that. So I'm wondering, can you share a little bit about about the read aloud planning template that you have.
Molly Ness: Sure. So I created a [00:15:00] three step sort of planning protocol that is relevant for all teachers pre k through eight.
It doesn't matter if you're doing a historical fiction book or a chapter book or a poem or what have you. And basically I plan in three steps. The first step in all, they all start with E to, to facilitate memory. The first step is evaluate. This is the work that I as a teacher do prior to reading aloud.
I evaluate the text for potential comprehension breakdowns as well as instructional opportunities. And my favorite part of this planning process is evaluating for background knowledge. What does the text assume that I as the reader bring to the page because if I don't have that knowledge, if I don't have that life experience, I'm setting my kids up for a comprehension breakdown.
So I'm really intentional about thinking about what is an area that I need to enhance and build and jog and and facilitate for [00:16:00] kids.
Shannon Betts: Can I interrupt you for a second? Because in your book, I learned a new term in addition to background knowledge, funds of knowledge. Yeah. So you look, you look for two different things when you are doing that evaluation.
Can you explain to our audience what funds of knowledge are?
Molly Ness: Yeah, and I, I'm glad that you picked that up because funds of knowledge were new to me as well. Okay. We talked about background knowledge. Some of us think about content knowledge. In 1992, researchers wrote about funds of knowledge, and so this is not new research, it is just not as well known.
Funds of knowledge are sort of the information and experiences that we have by existing in our communities. And funds of knowledge to me are sort of like the social cues that we all have to navigate to live our daily lives in our communities as well as in the world. So for an example funds [00:17:00] of knowledge, if I were to run into a, a, a friend here a, a friend in my community, I might say, Hey, what's up?
How are you? And give her a hug. Now, if I were meeting a business acquaintance, I might shake their hand. If I were in Japan, I might bow to them. If I were in Europe, I might do the, the, the double kiss cheek thing. So, knowing what to do in what situation based on who you are encountering is a fund of knowledge.
And they're specific to our cultures, our communities, and Really help us navigate the world. So to me, that information was super, super compelling that there's not just sort of content knowledge, background knowledge, domain knowledge, but there's also just these social nuances that interact that that we have to navigate on a daily basis.
Shannon Betts: And so you brought it alive to me when you described the Nuffle Bunny plan. Because you said, because I [00:18:00] just would have assumed that the students would have understood about the laundromat and walking the block and things like that. But you were explaining that that's more of a funds of knowledge versus background knowledge.
Molly Ness: Yeah. So the beloved Mo Willems picture book has not just background knowledge. Like you got to know what a laundromat is which not every kid does. You also have to know that in the family's house. The father goes and does the laundry while the mother stays back. Well, if you're not, that's not your family structure.
That's not your norm. You're already struggling with comprehension because you're like, Whoa, what's going on there? If you're in a family that you've had to move a lot, or you don't have extra resources for a beloved stuffed animal or a blankie or whatever, and that's just not part of your family, the whole story to you is a struggle with comprehension because you're like, why do they care about this ratty old stuffed animal?
And all of those, we sort of assume that our kids will get and that we can't [00:19:00] assume we can't we can't just, Assume that they know them because otherwise we're setting them up for deficits and comprehension. So in that first stage, I evaluate for all of those potential and it's kind of just a, a laundry list of this might be a potential imp imputer to comprehension.
Shannon Betts: And do you include vocabulary in that area?
Molly Ness: Hold vocabulary until the second step. Okay. Okay. For the most part but what I do is then I get this whole laundry list of things that, okay, this could be problematic or they might not be familiar with this. And then I can have some fun and bring in my teacher innovation and creativity and think about ways to build their background knowledge.
So if we're with the book Knuffle Bunny, maybe I bring in my favorite stuffed animal, or maybe I just do a Google slide of here's a laundromat. This is what it looks like. So there's so many ways that we can kind of pre teach and front load. But we have to be aware of where those breakdowns arise in order to head them off.
So in the second step, this is the [00:20:00] step that I'm actually like doing and conducting the read aloud. I explain so in explaining. I think about two buckets of vocabulary. So there's the bucket of words to teach, meaning we want to do some rich instruction around them. We want to say the words, give them student friendly definitions, use them in different contexts, like teach them to a level where we might hear kids use them on the playground or in their writing or what have you.
And then there are also those words that you just got to understand in the moment and then move on. So I was thinking about a A picture book, a William Steig picture book called Brave Irene which uses the word duchess. So I was reading this to a class of kids who live in New York City, pretty urban life.
The word duchess, are they going to use in their everyday, you know, playground talk, cafeteria talk, writing? No, but so I'm not going to waste my precious instructional time teaching it, but they have to understand it in that moment. So I can just say as I'm [00:21:00] reading. Duchess is another word for princess and most kids know princess because of we live in a Disney world and they're just, you know, get exposure to that.
So I'm, I'm intentional about words to teach versus words to just explain and move on. And then also in that second step, I use think aloud. And a think aloud is when I as a proficient reader crack open my head and talk through the invisible process that I'm using to model comprehension. I use lots and lots of first person narrative language.
So I might show my kids. How I make an inference by saying, I'm getting the sense that, or I'm noticing a clue that the author gave me all of that first person language lets us model our thinking and make what is an invisible process visible to kids. And we know there's so much power and think alouds.
I'm happy to. Share the research on them. [00:22:00] But we know that when kids get that modeling, not only are they more likely to understand the text they're encountering in that moment, but they're also more likely to transfer that thinking to their independent reading, which is, you know, one of the big things we want our kids to do.
So then in the third step, I've reached the end of the book. And, I think back to my first years of teaching, and you know, we finished the chapter, we finished the read aloud, and I might do something, you know, write a summary or something, sort of at a surface level, but not really enhancing literacy opportunities, socio emotional opportunities, and cross curricular opportunities.
So in this step, I engage and extend. So I engage my kids in literacy rich opportunities. To build reading, writing, speaking, and listening so I think of, I sort of generate a whole list of things that I might do to improve [00:23:00] kids understanding of the text as well as their retention of it. I also think through socio emotional components in learning.
And then I think through cross curricular extensions. I know that when I was a teacher, my kids, if I explicitly talked about something in my social studies and English class that the core teacher next to me who taught math and science, if we had like an overlap, they all freaked out. They're like, Oh, he just talked about that in science.
And now we're talking about that. in social studies. And what we know is that when kids get information that is similar, but it is across either tech sets or curricular connections that powerful learning happens. So in that last step, I think through all of those opportunities and, and of course I can't do them all, you know, time's short and precious.
But I sort of generate a laundry of if I had time or here's what I might do to really. Continue the opportunities of that read aloud [00:24:00] after the last page has been read.
Shannon Betts: Well, one of my favorite quotes from the chapter about engage and extend, I think just reflects even more of like a big idea around your teaching and that it's not just about the standards and it's not just about what we're getting the kids to learn.
But you say you want to invite students as readers, thinkers and human beings. into conversation, reflection, and inquiry about the text. And I love that because we've talked about that before on the podcast of just like we're building a community of people and we're, we're, we're training people. It's not just we have them for a year and we're just teaching them that they're great standards or whatever.
And so I love that, that when you are planning your extension activities, you're thinking, you're inviting them to Think as humans and develop as humans and not just let's master this standard. Let's do this activity. Let's do some busy work. I just I just like that you elevate it to that level.
Molly Ness: Well, thank you.
And that's [00:25:00] what we as adult readers do, whether we are book club, book club, a hundred percent, or whether we are reading, you know, we're going on a beach vacation and we're choosing a, you know, chick lit kind of mindless book. We don't read it with the purpose of like, I'm going to turn it into a diorama.
We read it to entertain, or we read it to think about something, or we read it to connect with somebody else or to learn. And so yeah, I'm really mindful that Reaching kids, not only as readers and writers and thinkers but who they are as human beings. Yeah, I'd like to leave like that
Mary Saghafi: part to go ahead.
Excuse me.
Shannon Betts: I also want to go back to what you were explaining about think alouds because I think that's super important because we spend a lot of time. I've been learning a lot about the science of reading and kind of about comprehension as upper preparing for these group of episodes. And what I've seen, you know, Is that we spend a lot of time working on the product of comprehension, like answering comprehension questions and doing the [00:26:00] main idea and doing graphic organizers, but comprehension isn't a product.
It's a process. That the students are doing in their minds to make meaning and construct meaning from the text. And so you taking you doing read alouds and spending extended time doing that think aloud and making that invisible visible is more instructional time on the process of comprehension. Sure.
Molly Ness: I came to read think alouds. When I was working as a doctoral student, I worked for four years as a reading clinician at our reading clinic. And I had a kid that I was tutoring for years, same kid. And I had gobs of data, quantitative data, observational data, all the data in the world to show me that his comprehension was.
His area of weakness, he struggled to understand. And I caught myself one day asking him questions like we often do, where did the character go next? You know, what do you think might happen? All of this. And then I kind of [00:27:00] like had this almost sort of like metaphoric, like slap in the face where I was like, what am I doing?
I already know he's struggling to comprehend why I'm asking him questions that merely assess. His comprehension. They don't build it. They are not actually make meaning more. And so that's what a think aloud does. It is literally me modeling what I am doing so that you as a kid are more likely to do it on your own.
And think alouds are not just regard, not just relevant to. Comprehension. I always, when I work with teachers, I always say like, you've done a think aloud. You just don't know you've done it. If you've taught a kindergartner to tie their shoelaces and you say, first, I'm going to take one loop and pull it through the other in my bunny ears, or if you've taught a if you've had the, the, the fear or the thrill of teaching a kid how to drive, you've done a think aloud first, I'm going to put on my blinker next, I'm going to check my rear view mirrors.
That's a think aloud. And it's to me, the, the focus of, am I. [00:28:00] Using my teacher language to model and build, or am I using it to assess and monitor? And too often we do assess and monitor. And so I want to switch it to monitor and and, and facilitate and build. And that's with ThinkAloud. I love that.
Mary Saghafi: I think that in my own mind and in my own language, when I say like explicitly teach something to, you know, and I always kind of come back to my example of my roundtable in my special ed intervention group I was Literally trying so hard to open my brain and share that knowledge.
And so I, I imagine that as explicitly teaching, but I think that that's just my own language behind it. But I really appreciate how you do this. And additionally, in your book too, you have these sentence starters for teachers to help them navigate. What does a think aloud actually, what does the language start to look like?
So you're scaffolding for teachers in this. Is really great, too, because [00:29:00] I think if I were to be listening to this, and this is my own modeling. If I were listening to this and I hadn't read through all of your book yet, I might think, Oh, no, that means I have to create another lesson plan which is not really the case.
The way that you have scaffolded this, it teaches you to think through the process and what is the language that you need to do to think through the process, which For me, it hits these three big areas. One, it solves the problem in my favorite way to teach is through a read aloud or a picture story read aloud and, and modeling thinking that way.
Two, we're working on this language comprehension, which we know is not addressed strongly enough in schools. And three, you've done the work to get me started. So at the end of each of your chapters, you also have these calls to action, which are also ways that you question the reader. How can I move on from this point?
Or what, how can I reflect on this? And I, it's probably from your time as a professor knowing that [00:30:00] this is how you need to address people, but I really appreciate it in this book. And I think that's what makes it approachable and easy to understand for the everyday classroom teacher.
Molly Ness: Well, I appreciate that.
I always, when I work with teachers and write for teachers I always keep two frames of reference in mind. First of all, myself, when I was a first year teacher and so overwhelmed. And then my university students who were like, don't throw theory at me, tell me what I'm doing Tuesday afternoon at two o'clock.
And the, the sentence starters. We've all probably heard the expression that teaching is begging, borrowing and stealing. And so those sentence starters are like literally there for you to steal. It is you know, there's. 10 different ways to generate an inference or there's eight different ways to model a synthesis.
Try these sentence starters out and figure out which ones work for you, figure out which ones work for your kids. And I will say that those come from this book that we're talking about now is my, my fifth book. My [00:31:00] third one was from Corwin Press, was all about think alouds and the power of them and how to use them.
And so those came from that book. And Have been really well received because of the practicality of the usability and they're just they're ready to go. They're applicable to any text and help people sort of try something out in a supported scaffolded way until they find their own their own way.
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Mary Saghafi: We need to have you back to talk about Think Alouds as well, because that sounds great. We can link the the Think Alouds.
Shannon Betts: I wrote it down. Absolutely. I want to read it next.
Molly Ness: When I started thinking when I started working around think alouds, I struggled with them. They didn't feel natural to me.
And I got to the point where like, actually last night, my kid and I it was one of those days that I had a long day. I, we were trying to make it our way out the door to hockey practice. So we ordered in and I'm thinking aloud through the delivery money. Do I want, you know, haven't had my vegetables today.
So maybe I should. And my kid was like, can you just order your entree and being like, Once you get proficient with them, and once you understand the purpose of them, you can turn it off.
Shannon Betts: Mary, I think you brought up a good point that this isn't just yet another [00:34:00] lesson plan. And I think we need to definitely mention that, like what you provide in this book, Molly, it's like a framework for like thinking about your read aloud. But all you would have to do is. First off, read the read aloud before you read it to the class, which I have, I've also done it where it's a cold read.
And it, there's less teachable opportunities if you do that. So like, I'm seeing the error of my ways there, but go ahead and read the, you know, you could read it at night. You could read it, you know on a Sunday afternoon or whatever. And then you could be thinking through those three E steps. On your drive to school, you, you show us how you write it down.
You even in one of your chapters, like explicitly, like as if we were observing, you teach it how it would look, but you're not expecting that level of detail when the teacher's actually doing it on the go. You're just sort of explaining, you know, you're making your own visible, invisible planning process visible to us.
Molly Ness: Sure. Yeah, I and I'm always mindful that teachers are super, super busy. And so I don't want [00:35:00] anybody to look at the planning process and be like, you expect me to do this for every single book I'm going to read aloud. Like, you know, dream on lady. But it is the sort of safety blanket that helps me understand the process until I get until I get really comfortable with it.
I think back to myself as an early career teacher and we. wrote out the lesson plans with the objectives and every thumbtack and, you know, sentence strip that we were going to use. And then we all get to the point where, you know, we can jot three words on a sticky note and know what those three words mean for a 45 minute lesson.
Because we've gone through the explicitness. As the initial steps as the safety blanket. And so I model in the book really three different texts, a K through two texts, a three through five texts, a six through eight texts so that people can see how the intentionality and then make it work for them and make it work for their timeframe and their students.
Shannon Betts: I think you bring up just now a good point I wanted to ask about is that, you know, you've made a very good case in this [00:36:00] conversation and also in the book, which is titled read aloud for all learners and you explicitly state to the whole book, it is not just for little kids. It is for all the way to grade eight or above.
But can you explain a little bit in kind of quick terms, how what you show the difference in those kind of three grade bands, what is that instructional focus, what is that, you know, that purpose of that read aloud for those different kids? Age groups.
Molly Ness: So For all of my read alouds, the focus is language comprehension, vocabulary, background knowledge.
There's really lovely data that shows that kids in their everyday conversation and through TV and such. Don't hear the sophisticated vocabulary words that are in a picture book, a chapter book, whatever we're reading aloud. And we also know that kids listening comprehension exceeds their reading comprehension until about grade seven or eight.
So to me, there is, you know, always a time and a [00:37:00] place for read alouds. For me, some of my content area read alouds may be a little bit different. So if I were, you know, a seventh grade science teacher, I might read aloud with more focus on taking a sophisticated science concept and building the background knowledge to make it clear because the texts that kids are using.
Be a basal reader or a, you know, the typical science textbook doesn't present the information in a way that's as concise as clear as engaging. And so I focus on those ones a little bit more on content knowledge and domain specific stuff and maybe a little less on the sort of literacy socio emotional components.
Mary Saghafi: But the framework for me is pretty similar. What am I going to do? Prepare and support kids before the text. What are the comprehension breakdowns? I'm going to model a think aloud just as much in a content area class classroom, as I would in a sort of [00:38:00] stereotypical first grade picture book, and then afterwards think about what I'm doing to enhance their comprehension and retention of the material after the last page has been read.
I love, I don't think that we've touched on this enough, but I think that the examples that you give and then even in your appendices, how to search for these high quality read alouds, you gave a whole list of incredible books and some that I knew and some that I was not familiar with and things that I have now like really piqued my attention, especially in different content areas to in the areas of math, not just Grapes of math, which is something that I, you know, constantly like have that as one of my go tos.
But I, yeah, I really appreciate that. And I think that one of the like, really valuable pieces of your book is your, your appendix that has all of these lists of books and then other resources and places you can go to find more lists of books that are the [00:39:00] high quality books that you may be searching for related to your content area or area of study.
I thought that was fantastic.
Molly Ness: Yeah, it's impossible to stay on top of how many books are coming out on a daily basis. And I will say that data show that data that surveys that have been inquiring about teacher selection of the texts that they read aloud, the vast majority of read alouds are fiction and they are relatively outdated.
They're sort of the 25 year old texts. And in no way am I poo pooing, you know, Corduroy and Miss Nelson is missing and such. But as you said earlier exploring some of the current text offers opportunities and perspectives that don't always appear in in more familiar text. So I really encourage people to step outside of their comfort zone and investigate some of those more current texts.
The diversity of them, the topics around some of them I'm a super big [00:40:00] fan of sort of historical fiction and picture books that tell about contributions unknown contributions from lesser known people or people who have faced adversity. So for example, one of my favorite picture books is the William Hoy story.
It is about a deaf baseball player who, the reason that we. Still to this day have signals, signals between the umpire and the pitcher signals between the coach and the batter. We have William Hoy to thank for those and you know, great opportunity for a gym teacher to have conversations with, Hey, that signal that you just got, do you know what that came from?
Let me read you a book about that. And there are just so many books that are coming out on a daily basis that do that, that, that focus on those untold stories. And you know, but the second I publish a book with like, here are my favorite titles, it's already outdated. So it's better for me to, to kind of give places that people can explore on their own.
And [00:41:00] yeah, I definitely stand on the shoulders of some of my colleagues who do a really fabulous job writing about how to select a book. So I'm. Kind of coming in writing this book saying you've already selected your book. Now, let's get you started in the planning process, but that those titles are listed in the appendices as well.
Mary Saghafi: Yeah, I love that. I was going to also do a little plug for your podcast too, because you have a podcast called Endbook Desert. And it has more to do with like corporations who support sharing books in, in areas where books may not be as prevalent or relevant. But I have really enjoyed some of the guests that you've had on, on some of your shows too.
I'm particularly thinking of like the drag. Story hour, which is something I've been familiar with for a long time, and I think it's just so unique, but especially how when when these individuals are reading about how dramatic it can be and how they have actually been so thoughtful and, and thinking about how they [00:42:00] create the characters and bring to life this story in a really theatrical way.
And I thought that was a super great episode as well. So I wanted to plug for that one. It was great.
Molly Ness: Yeah. The, The statistics around book access are gobsmacking. So I started this podcast about Gosh, pandemics made us all lose sense of time, but I guess it was about five years ago because I came to research that showed that 32 million American kids in this day and age, this is current research, lack access to books in their homes, schools, and communities.
And so, you know, we're talking about making our kids lifelong readers and proficient readers. Well, how are they going to do that? Don't have books. And so when I started this podcast, I kind of just wanted to bring awareness to this because it was a statistic that I as a reading researcher did not know.
And moreover, I wanted to share the stories of the people in programs who are doing really innovative work to get books to [00:43:00] kids wherever they are. And I will say that the programs and people out there are just. Amazing. Like, for example there's something called United Through Reading. Every single military base in the country has a recording studio where a parent who is deployed can go into this reading studio and read a book to their child because if they're deployed, they're, you know, that kid might be missing.
The the, the comfort of a bedtime story. So they read aloud to their child united through reading helps choose the book. They help with the recording. They send the virtual recording to the kid, as well as a copy of the book. There are similar programs for parents who are incarcerated. There are programs for kids who there's, there's.
Literacy corners in laundromats, as well as beauty parlors and salons, which are often in the black community, sort of a cornerstone of the of the of the community. So there's just so much [00:44:00] stuff going on. Book vending machines, you know, teachers who ride their bicycles into areas and give out books that.
I just wanted to showcase those because lots of us are saying that, you know, would be great, but I don't have books. Well, there's probably now about 50 episodes of the people in programs who are doing that work to get books to kids.
Mary Saghafi: Super great. I love, I love this effort too. And we'll make sure that we link to your podcast as well for some of our listeners.
Shannon Betts: Molly, I was just reading a geodes decodable with my students this week, and it was called the story ship. And it was about, have you heard of this? It's in Norway. And it it, it's a little boat that brings books through the fjords, like, and brings so that the students can get books because they live so remotely, they can't get to a library, you know,
Molly Ness: and there's There's actually there's one also I don't know that one, but there's a great picture book called My Librarian is a Camel, and it features international efforts to get books to [00:45:00] kids, be it if your librarian is a camel in some of these places in the Middle East, or your there's some kids living down in South America who use, you know, donkeys and such, and it's just this really heartwarming picture you know, picture book about all of the ways to get access to books.
And it should not be an issue anymore because books, they don't have a shelf life. There's no expiration date. They're easily transported, transportable. There's no like kind of human being that has to be, you know, it's not like knowledge in my head that I have to get the human there. These are easily distributable and it's still not happening in too many communities.
Mary Saghafi: Great work. Really amazing.
Shannon Betts: Can you share any other book titles? Like I loved the one. Can you describe the one about the the Japanese grandparents in the library? I had never heard of that book, but it was so, so sweet.
Molly Ness: Oh, love at the library. So I love Books also that are based on true stories.
And then you get to the end [00:46:00] and there's the author's note. Love at the Library, and I also love books about books and reading culture and libraries and such. So Love at the Library is a relatively new ish scholastic book that takes place in a Japanese internment camp during World War II. Talk about background knowledge your kids are not going to have.
Lots of pre teaching needs to go into that. So the book tells the story of a young man and woman who meet at the Japanese internment camp in the library and fall in love and then subsequently build a life together. They have children together and at the end of the book you find out that the author of the book was the grandchild of this actual couple.
And so it's this lovely book that talks about how books connect us and the full. And a great book to sort of, I also love books, I think I sort of hit on this earlier that are like the untold stories. Well, there's not a lot about, if you went to the average, like seventh grader, if I [00:47:00] told her, she's now studying world war two, she knows about concentration camps.
She knows about, you know, the, the Nazi regime, but. Does she know that our country had, you know, internment camps? Probably not. So great picture book to give her background knowledge about kind of an untold story.
Mary Saghafi: Yeah. It's that one. I was just like,
Shannon Betts: it sounded like a sweet story because like the, the man was just going to get books.
You know, and she, the librarian thought he was just going to get books, but then really he was going there to meet her too. I just think that is so precious.
Mary Saghafi: It's a beautiful little love story too.
Molly Ness: And it's and one of the, some of the most beautiful language in it is to fall in love is a miracle, but to fall in love in a setting of these internment camps, which is, you know, human despair and such is even more of a miracle.
And so the language is really gorgeous. Wow. Story of hope.
Shannon Betts: Really amazing. Well, we, [00:48:00] we encourage everybody to check out your book because like literally like on every page you turn, there's another book title suggestion and I'm like, I had never heard of this one. I had never heard of this one. I had never heard of this one.
So my Amazon cart is going to be full and my library stack is going to be full.
Molly Ness: Yes. Anytime that I always joke, like anytime I go to a webinar or a conference where people are talking about books, I'm like, just take my credit card. It's costing me a lot, but you know of all of the vices that I could have buying too many books is I think a pretty, a pretty okay vice to deal with.
Mary Saghafi: So I've always said that too. I I think that this book is, is for me, it's the one bridge that I really needed for. Teaching language comprehension. And I'll say that because I am an interventionist. And so I am constantly like, okay, we have to get kids to decode if they can't decode, how are they ever even going to get the language.
And so that part is [00:49:00] really essential. But I really love how you have so clearly articulated this need, but also allowed for so much teacher creativity. I think that I walk this fine line as a special ed teacher of, you know, how it's. How much explicit and how much direct instruction do I need and how much control do I have in that.
And, and making sure that I show fidelity and things like that. Your book, I feel like, is such a great bridge for that because it really helps teachers like me make all of this also accessible in a way that feels like I can handle it. I really, I appreciate that. My other piece is that I went to a liberal arts college and I got my degree in elementary education, and I very distinctly remember going to my professor in my master's program and being like, Okay, but you're telling me I have to do direct instruction.
That's boring. And I am a creative and I have been taught that I have these abilities to create these fantastic lesson plans for my students. And he's like, but are you doing it with [00:50:00] fidelity? And I went. Oh, like brain exploding. So I feel like you have just created this amazing bridge for me so that I, I mean, I know it's existed and it's taken me years to figure it out, but this, this really does help.
And I think especially for novice teachers, this can be a really nice way to help with the science of reading on this end of Scarborough's reading rope,
Molly Ness: which that I appreciate the kind words. And yes, there is. a not just plenty of space for read alouds in the science of reading, but more importantly, there is a need for read alouds in the science of reading.
Shannon Betts: You definitely make the case for that. So we appreciate this. We appreciate you taking the time to talk to us. Is there anything else you want our audience alouds or?
Molly Ness: No, but I do just want to extend a profound thank you and gratitude to any listener who identifies themselves as somebody who cares deeply about [00:51:00] public education and teaching and instruction.
It is a really hard time to be somebody who is working in school buildings. And I say that it's always been hard to be a teacher now more than ever. It is really hard to be a teacher. And I always say that as a teacher of teachers, I do the easy work. I write articles. I write books. Like I'm not in there every day with kids and overburdened with workloads and all of those things that we know that are on teachers plates.
So thank you. And I. Absolutely recognize this is a profession which does not get enough recognition, respect all of those things. So please know that if you are somebody who works in schools, you have my profound respect not just as a professional, but also as a parent.
Mary Saghafi: Mm hmm. Yeah, I agree.
I, I have to commend you on that because I totally agree with that as well. Oh, it's been a pleasure to speak with you. I can't wait to dive in more about think alouds later. Cause you are on [00:52:00] the top of my list. Love that.
Molly Ness: Well, I'm so grateful for the work that you guys do. And for the time that you've carved out to talk about this.
Mary Saghafi: Thank you so much. It's nice to meet you.
Molly Ness: Take care. And thanks again.