Shannon and Mary talk about why they love student mistakes. They share how to make mistakes meaningful in the ways they show insight into students' learning. They chat about establishing a trusting relationship with students so they feel comfortable showing us mistakes. Lastly, they discuss ways to provide student feedback without inducing shame. Learning happens between the lessons, and in this episode, you'll find concrete ideas for what to do and say each day with your students to promote a growth mindset and engagement in learning.
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Shannon and Mary talk about why they love student mistakes. They share how to make mistakes meaningful in the ways they show insight into students' learning. They chat about establishing a trusting relationship with students so they feel comfortable showing us mistakes. Lastly, they discuss ways to provide student feedback without inducing shame. Learning happens between the lessons, and in this episode, you'll find concrete ideas for what to do and say each day with your students to promote a growth mindset and engagement in learning.
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6.4 We Heart Mistakes
Shannon Betts: [00:00:00] Hey, Mary, I'm really excited to talk to you today because I've been analyzing a lot of my students data. And what I've realized about myself as a teacher is that I love student mistakes. And that's not something I would have said early in my career so I'd love to delve more into this topic with you today.
Mary Saghafi: I love mistakes too. I can't wait.
Welcome to the reading teacher's lounge. Hi, I'm Mary Sagoffi. I'm a dyslexia advocate and a private tutor here in Atlanta, Georgia. I've been teaching since 2006, both elementary and special education. Today, I support students who struggle with reading and support their families with parent coaching and advocacy.
I offer one on one private tutoring using Orton Gillingham methodology and multi sensory instruction. I strongly believe that humor and and acceptance are keys to Communicating with both children and adults. I'm passionate about finding ways to build self esteem and find what works for my students as learners.
Shannon Betts: Hi, [00:01:00] I'm Shannon Betts, and I've been teaching since 2002. I've spent equal time between working as a classroom teacher and serving as a reading specialist. Currently, I'm working part time at a private school this year as a reading resource teacher. My specialty is working with English language learners and older students who are still striving to read.
I help locate the missing pieces in their reading development and find just right activities to fill in their learning gaps. My mission is to unlock literacy for all readers and to get the students thinking about and engaged in their own learning. So this is our fourth episode of our sixth season. And today we're going to talk about why we love student mistakes, because it gives us so much insight into their, into their thinking and into their brains.
I tell the students, you know, if I had a a drill and I could, you know, drill into their brain and peek into it and see they're thinking I would, but that would hurt them. And so I don't do that. And so I actually want them to speak out even if they don't know the right answer. In fact, I want them to speak out when they know the wrong answer, if it's the wrong [00:02:00] answer, so that I can understand where the misconceptions are.
And I also spent a lot of time analyzing the reading that they do out loud and also the writing that they do and the spelling that they do so that I can understand where they are developmentally and their understanding of the. Phonics knowledge of their vowel development, what they know about high frequency words and so forth.
Mary Saghafi: Same with my practice, too, and I, as many of you know, I'm a private tutor, and so when kids first come to me I do a battery of assessments, and that first battery of assessments, I always tell the parents, it's going to be challenging for them. Because I'm going to be asking them to do some easy things and some difficult things and some things that might be right on target and on track.
And so I try to get the parents to help their student understand that first. And then when I first meet them, it's all about building rapport. And so my incentives are high for the students, but I'm really [00:03:00] specific with how I give feedback. So Thank you. Many times I'm giving especially in the first session, I have kind of an emoji sheet and I want to know how do they actually feel about reading.
And it's kind of interesting because you can tell there are some kids who try and read adult social cues and want to give the answer that adults want to hear. And so if they offer me something that I feel like is very authentic, right away, one of the first things is Thanks so much for sharing that with me.
I'm sure it is hard for you, or I'm sure you do feel frustrated. And more than likely they haven't heard a compliment because of a frustration. And so one of the big things that I attempt to do. Because this is the key to building rapport is creating a safe space for all students or any person that you're really conversing with.
And so I know that that's our number one goal as a classroom teacher, as an adult who works with children is creating a safe space [00:04:00] and building that rapport. But especially when we're asking students to make mistakes in front of us that is really challenging, especially depending on their developmental level.
It's normal for kids to not want to make mistakes. They want to fit in with their peers. They don't want to stand out.
Shannon Betts: And we don't know their school history. We don't know if they've been shamed or ridiculed for making mistakes in the class before. If they've, you know, been giggled about, you know. from their peers or things like that.
But just like you, you know, I work with a lot of older students and they've had a cycle of failure. And so whenever I have a homeroom of students, or if it's a resource student, I immediately want them to feel comfortable making mistakes, trusting me with the truth and the honesty of like, you need to tell me, especially English language learners, tell me when you don't know what a word means.
Because I'm not gonna, I'm just gonna assume you know what that word means in English, so I need to know when you don't know it. And when you can show them [00:05:00] that that's a safe space and when you can compliment them on being honest with you and show them, you know, that we make mistakes too, that will help with that student engagement piece and will help that intervention go so much faster.
When you can set up that relationship and that culture of growth mindset with the students and that's what those were exactly.
Mary Saghafi: That's the phrase. I wanted to kind of touch on next was this like culture of growth mindset and it's it's a really high. Bar to set in your classroom to encourage all of your kids to have this growth mindset piece.
But the way that you speak about yourself and your mistakes and modeling even how you go about your day making mistakes. One, it's healthy for you to have a good growth mindset and attitude as an adult modeling that. But the students are constantly watching us. And so the way that we first begin this one, we really need to do it for ourselves.
And [00:06:00] secondly we need to model it for our students and then expect it from our students as well. And so this, this piece allows us to say, yes, mistakes are so helpful because once I see your mistakes, then I have a whole bag of tricks that lets me know. If you do this, then I can intervene with this and that's really what students don't understand.
Teachers really want to do and really want to share and really want to promote. So, you know, I think that maybe shifting a little bit with that would allow teachers and parents and students to. You know, kind of gather together so that we're all really on the same team. That's a big shift, right, Shannon?
Like, that's not always the culture that happens in schools.
Shannon Betts: No, no, no. I'm even, you know, I'm seeing that. And I finally started my resource schedule this week. And so I was finally in classrooms, which. My [00:07:00] parent was like, today was the most fun. We've been just stuck doing paperwork and now we're with students and the day goes so much faster and it's so much more meaningful when we're actually helping kids learn.
I'm like, exactly. This is why. Exactly. I've wanted this job for 20 something years. So but what I was noticing is that A lot of the teachers, you know, they want the students to get the right answer and they want to make sure that they're teaching the kids correctly. And so a lot of times, like I saw the teacher spending a lot of time on the note taking piece and they thought it was guided practice, but it was more, you know, just the teacher was doing the work and the students were really quickly copying.
And what I was suggesting to the student to the teachers is like maybe next time. Like you can do that for the first few, but then the last few prompts don't do that. Just assign it to the kids, give them five minutes to scribble some answers, and then look over them. It doesn't even have to be for classroom grade, but let's just see what they can do without us.
Because that evens the playing field too because some kids are sitting [00:08:00] there bored because they already knew the answer and so they're kind of being slowed up by the rest of the class and then some others are struggling to keep up with the pace of the class. And so it's just a little bit better I think it's okay if they make mistakes that will tell us oh let's pull these kids in a small group let's see.
What percentage of class of the class could do this prompt correctly. And then that'll tell us if we need to teach the whole class again, or if we need to just teach, you know, one or two students, one on one, or if we need to teach a small group, but we've got to have the kids do the work by themselves without any assistance from us to really know if they know it.
And then to also create this culture of growth mindset where, you know, you tell the kids upfront, like, this isn't for great. I just want to see if you can do it without me. Just a phrase like that. Students, even at the lowest level, understand that phrase. Yes. I just want to see what you can do without my help.
And when you ask them to do that the first time, like I was doing that in a second grade class and a fifth grade class, and the second graders were like, but [00:09:00] help me with this one. And I'm like, no, it's okay. It's not for a grade. I'm not going to help you. I will help you after you turn it in. But I need to see what you can do without me.
Mary Saghafi: I think that one that shows students that you can trust them to, you know, I, I trust you, you can do this. But also it gives you insight, not only to just like the skill that you're teaching, but what other behaviors do you see? So if I were doing that in the classroom and I was like the co teacher, I would be looking to see, are my students on my caseload or any on other students?
Are they initiating work independently? Do they know how to even get the supplies ready? So that they can begin what are those behaviors that they're trying to cover up that they don't know, you know, are, are there behaviors that are happening where they're trying to pretend like they're doing work that or,
Shannon Betts: well, and I think that shows to like, does the student understand that it's their responsibility to learn this?[00:10:00]
Or are they just going to keep following along with the class of the teacher and just hope to get out of it eventually the next unit.
Mary Saghafi: And, and when you do that, I think that especially in at the beginning of the year, as soon as you're building your relationships with them. I mean, there's even time to repair always, but you can come back and say, Hey, I noticed that it was hard for you to get started.
What was the part that was hard for you and that response is very different than get started. I told you it's time to go. There is a time and a place for discipline in the classroom. There truly is. And there it is appropriate to say that sometimes to some students, however, if you're really honing and drilling down on it, what is that student showing you?
What is their behavior communicating their need to you? And I think that's the other piece that I learned. Not as fast as I, I wished when I was a special ed teacher, but that behavior is communication and [00:11:00] that can be positive or negative. And yeah, I, I love that. And, and then also giving a little bit of wait time.
Like, I know that as a private tutor, I have the luxury of working one on one and that is a luxury because I can give a lot of wait time. But there are times where I see it takes up to seven seconds, a very long time to process directions, think about what the, what's expected to recall the information and get it on paper.
Seven seconds is a really long time, and most adults don't have the patience for that, especially when you are trying to just get through that lesson. But if you could also, like, hone in on some of those behaviors, what are you noticing with that? What could you do the next time you present something specifically to that student that you notice?
Maybe, maybe another check in, or do I need to explain something to you one more time? Do you have any questions for me?[00:12:00] That really helps us individualize how we're meeting the needs of our students.
Shannon Betts: Yeah. You can make a signal with that student, like just privately, like, you know, when the student can tell you, I need more think time, you know, if it's just that one student, or if you notice it's class wide, then that's something you might need to tell yourself, you know, like, okay.
And then just, you count off with your fingers or something tapping on your knee. Just let me give five to seven seconds before I call on people to give them time to get that answer ready.
Mary Saghafi: I love that. Yeah, I have actually something that I noticed just this year. So my youngest has started kindergarten and she's having a super great year.
Super wonderful teacher. She's very bubbly. She has all the cutesy stuff in her room, but she also is super on it. And her kids, meaning my daughter's. So on it too. So I went in for a little donuts and pastries or what do they call it? Pastries with parents. Nice. And they, she just had a few things out to share when they do their group [00:13:00] work.
They have a little tag on their desk that has one, two, three, and four and a one. My child was able to say means I don't understand. I need help. 2 is I might need a little bit of help with this. 3 is I can do this work independently. 4 is I can teach another person. And so, as the teacher comes by, she'll say, okay, tell me what number are you on and each of those kindergarten students are able to assess where they are.
even the second month of school. So I think that that's a really powerful thing. We need to give students the opportunity to really evaluate. Are they, I think she calls it her self reflection numbers or something like that. And I think that that's really powerful. I've seen it too, where you raise your hand and you do the.
Four, I could teach another person. Three, I'm independent. Two, I might need a little help. And when you see a two and a four, you match up a two and a four a person who can teach and a person who needs a little [00:14:00] help. And if you see a one, that's where you intervene. And so that makes. That makes those interventions a little bit better.
Once you have developed this sense of, hey, it's fluid, you might not always understand everything in our classroom, but here I am to help. Here are your peers to help. We are all going to need help at some point.
Shannon Betts: Well, and that shows that learning is a process. Like I think students think that maybe we expect them on day one of a unit to know everything.
And it's. You may be because we, you know, do a KWL chart or something, but we don't like we need to say explicitly like, Hey, this is new. We're learning this and I don't expect you to know it all right now. So it's okay. When you're raising your hand up, when I've asked a question, you don't even have to have the right answer.
When you've raised your hand, just, just participate in the class. And then if it's, if it's not correct yet, I can give you feedback or give you probing questions to get the question. Right.
Mary Saghafi: Yeah. [00:15:00] And I think doing that in. In an individual setting in a small group setting and in a large group setting and and varying that like fluidity of safe space is really important.
That's, that's the goal. So that kids become more, understanding that this is their that they have responsibility and ownership of their work
Shannon Betts: well and what I'll do too is if a student has said the incorrect answer and I don't really have the time to kind of probe and get them what I'll do is I'll say you know what I'm going to go on and hear a few other answers and I'm going to come back to you.
And once you've heard the correct answer, I need you to pay attention to everybody else that I'm calling on and I'll let them know when they're correct and then I'm going to come back to you and you need to give me that correct answer. And that keeps them focused during the, you know, because sometimes they think, oh, if you've moved on from me, then I can just sort of start daydreaming again.
But no, you've got to be listening even when I'm calling on other people. Yeah. And so I tell kids every turn learns was one of the things that we always said in my [00:16:00] class because I wanted them always to be paying attention to the learning conversation and not just when I called on them. And so love that every turn
learns.
Mary Saghafi: Yeah.
Shannon Betts: Perfect. Yeah. So I did that just the other day in the second grade class like this one girl, she, she got the answer incorrect twice. And I didn't really have the time to kind of keep probing her so I was like, I'm going to go to two other people and I will come back to you and I want you to give them the correct response.
And it took maybe. You know, a minute and a half. I called on two other people, went back to her. She gave me the correct response. And now, I made a mental note. Has she mastered that? No, she has not mastered that. I'm gonna have to keep coming back and checking on her. But at least to hold her accountable to to correct that mistake at least one time in her head.
Our goal is And did it without a shaming way. You know, it was just Yeah.
Mary Saghafi: No, no, I, I agree. I think that our goal in this was really to talk about like analyzing errors mm-hmm. , but as I'm like listening and, and reflecting on what we're sharing, it's so much classroom management. It is. And so much of just building that [00:17:00] relationship with students and knowing your students really well.
Shannon Betts: It's making it a learning space.
Mary Saghafi: Exactly. Yep. So I, I think. Yeah, I just something that I hadn't noted on our notes before this, but really it is it is really good classroom management, too Let's talk a little bit and shift into analyzing errors
Shannon Betts: Yeah. So what do we do when we notice the errors? Well, first off, I think I've mentioned in previous seasons that I did error analysis with all of my graded papers.
Yes. Yes. Starting with second grade on and I could share a picture with that on the, on the social media for this episode. But what I had the students do was for every graded assignment, if it was lower than a C or actually, Okay. If they wanted to change the grade, if it was lower than a C, they had to change the grade, but even if it was a B and they wanted to change the grade to an A, I would let them do their analysis, but they had to go through the ones that they got wrong, then [00:18:00] put the correct answer, which, I mean, that's what I did even when I was in elementary school was just sometimes we had to correct our papers, but.
Right. The important piece was the last column where the students will either say why they got it wrong, or why is that the correct answer. Because either scenario works. Sometimes if it's a math mistake, you know, Oh, I just forgot to regroup or something that might be why they got it wrong. But then other times they might say no, this is the correct answer because.
This prefix means this thing, and so that's the right answer, and sometimes it's more powerful to say why the answer is correct rather than, you know, just digging more into their error. So I had the students do that. It wasn't just on Fridays. A lot of times, you know, sometimes I would get to my graded papers by Thursday.
And so a lot of Friday mornings were spent doing your analysis. But I also graded throughout the week. And so we did air analysis kind of anytime the students would walk in, I would put graded papers sometimes on their desk and an air analysis page and they would have to work on it. And that gave me a lot of opportunities as well.
[00:19:00] One on one to walk around or the students knew if they were stuck, they could go to a peer or they could come and find me. If it was an open, you know, students never interrupted me at the kidney table, but if it was in another place, they could interrupt me. And so if it was a time when they could interrupt me, then they would come to me and say, I really just don't understand what the right answer is.
I don't know why I got this wrong. Then I could do some reteaching. So that was one thing I did with air analysis. Another thing is that I did running records. First off, I never did running records the way Balance literacy taught it like I don't understand MSV. I never have. So I never did the running records that way.
Like, I guess it's good that I never learned the wrong way. I've always used running records to see what word they put in place of, you know, what words did they omit? What words did they add? And then what words did they you know, substitute. And then if they substituted a different word, did it at least have the same first sound?
Did it have, you know, the same [00:20:00] first and middle sound, but they just missed the ending or something? Or was it just completely non phonics based error? I look, that was what was powerful to me about running records, is to really see. you know, were they missing more sight words? Are they missing more, you know, multi syllable words?
Is it just kind of random? Yeah. How did I sat there? Yeah. Yeah. I just looked at the errors. Were they even trying to approach the error or were they just waiting the three seconds until the teacher gave them the word? So that I've used running records. to tell me a lot. And then I would analyze that and then sort of make an intervention plan.
I would try to find a few students who had similar errors, and then that might be part of my small group for, for reading. And then I also analyze a lot of their spelling in their writing passages and also the words their way spelling inventory. I always give at the beginning of the year to see if they got it correct or if they didn't get correct, what letters did they [00:21:00] miss?
Did they miss the blend? Did they miss the diagraph? Did they miss the vowel team? Did they at least put the short vowel correct, but then, you know, or did they put e but not ee, you know, for the long e, just all of that information is really, really important.
Mary Saghafi: I would say that I did that a lot, especially with my dictation sentences when I would do dictation was always one piece of my spelling List, and then the secondary part when we would do dictation sentences or phrases, that's where I really needed to like kind of hone in on the kids because What I found most often in my resource group was that it was not that they didn't have those skills taught, it was that they didn't know how to apply them when they had to apply a number of other skills when it comes to writing sentences.
And so it was remembering how to spell the sight words, it was remembering capitalization and punctuation, it was making sure that I knew why, you know, [00:22:00] this is a proper noun, don't forget that this is a proper noun.
Shannon Betts: That's a lot of rules to remember at once, especially if they're already struggling with phonics and phonemic awareness to then have to remember those conventions also.
Mary Saghafi: And sometimes even letter formation. And so That multitude of skills is really important, but I think that they would get so I often gave many points for dictation and so we would be able to like hone in on all of those like discreet skills. And so I would say, okay, what was the area that you were strongest in?
Was it capitalization, punctuation? Was it your spelling words? What area do you need to work on? And we would, I always use the cops or the cups. Evaluation. And so I always gave my students a chance to do that. But then we would circle it together. Like, okay, so, you know, student a was capitalization hard for you circle that C.
So next week when we do it, what are you going to be working on as we go through the whole week in practice capitalization and kind of drawing [00:23:00] out the purpose and the reason behind it explicitly is really important. I think for my students that way. But yeah, I, I loved those those errors. And I think it's a lot more reflective for students if they understand rather than just seeing a big red mark across, especially, I mean, I've talked about this a lot.
I know is that those, those red pen marks are very, very, very upsetting to students, especially who have dyslexia. it's just kind of a common trait that many of those kids have. And so I like to often give the pen to the kids too and let them check their errors. And I always, if time allowed and we were able to I would reread and teach them how to go back and check their errors too.
I think especially for struggling readers. So if you have the ability to check in small group, I think that's really powerful.
Shannon Betts: Well, especially because the goal is automatic self [00:24:00] correction on the student's part. Correct. And so we have to teach that if they are not good at noticing their own mistakes, that they're used to just sort of turning in something and then it's out of their brain forever.
Or they're just waiting for that grade and waiting for the red marks, but they don't see it as that growth process. Yeah, you know, then we have to explicitly teach them that. Hi, I'm wanting you to eventually notice your own mistakes. I'm not going to be with you. And so I need you to start finding these so we can praise it when they do find their own mistakes.
And we can do things like what you're saying, which is sort of guided self correction. Mm hmm. To eventually, maybe then later on, take away a piece of that and just say, Hey, I'm going to give you five more minutes to reflect on your paper and see if you can find any of the mistakes. Or I noticed three mistakes.
I'm going to see if you can find the three that I found.
Mary Saghafi: And that wait time, that giving them that opportunity, that's where I'm also looking for those behaviors. Do they even know how to start this [00:25:00] task? Mm hmm. Do they understand what I'm asking of them? And, and focusing in on that part is also really important too.
As I've been doing a lot of parent coaching, I will often try to like observe when parents are doing work with their kids at home too. And so many times as with so often with so many adults, they are interrupting their thinking process, the students thinking process. And so sometimes I will literally be in a tutoring session and I will cover my mouth and stop myself from talking because I want to give that wait time to see if they can self correct.
And if it's not happening, then I want to prompt it. Like, do you see your error here? Or I see one error. Can you find it? That language is really important. And I know that it's not always a possibility, but if you set a, I would say that if there's a takeaway from this, it's give your students a little time to correct their mistakes and see if they even notice their mistakes.[00:26:00]
Shannon Betts: And sometimes what I'll do to start get that. Going is after the running record is complete. I might pick like a very specific error from the passage and I'll say, I'm going to read the sentence to you the way you read it to me and I'm going to see if you can notice where you made a mistake in this sentence and see if they can notice it once I've read it back to them.
And that gets them starting to realize that as their intervention reading coach, that I'm going to be promoting that culture of growth mindset, that I'm going to be. Teaching them to take ownership of their own learning, teach you know, their ownership of their automatic self correction.
Mary Saghafi: Does that make sense?
Yes. And as I'm thinking about this, I have this like funny tidbit. So I love Mr. D x 3. He's on TikTok and Instagram. He does this funny thing where he will read student writing and he will read it like so literally, and it is hilarious. And so he would actually do this in front of his students. And so they, [00:27:00] and of course he had a really safe place where the students could feel it, but it was silly and it was like meant to be humorous.
And nobody was doing it on purpose, but then it also helps them kind of, you know, develop this. So I think coming back to humor about this too, and not taking things so seriously. So I am really serious when I'm wanting students to correct mistakes, but also I think promoting a healthy growth mindset also is like, how do I teach myself to let it roll off my back too?
How do I know that my teacher doesn't hate me or that my students don't hate me if I make a mistake? What does it look like to? You know
Shannon Betts: Well, then we can model that too Like when i'm writing on an anchor chart really quickly or writing on the board really quickly and i'm teaching at the same time I omit words a lot because i'm sort of you know, my thinking is going faster than my pen And so when I reread it, Notice that I made a mistake.
Or the students oftentimes love to raise their hand and say, miss bets, you forgot [00:28:00] to put this word, or you wrote this word twice. And so when we can just sort of, you know, hit ourselves on the floor and be like, oops, another mistake, and you uhhuh, you laugh it off, or whatever. That teaches them too that it's okay to make mistakes in this space.
Nobody is laughing at each other. Or if we're laughing, we're all laughing together, not at someone. You know, we're just here to learn. I love also that teaches them to reread their whatever they've put down. That's another thing is that they need to reread what they've put down. A lot of times, you know, like starting in third, fourth, and fifth grade, they'll say, okay, check over your work before you turn in a test.
Do students know what that actually means? Have you taught them what that means? A lot of times, if they haven't been taught that, what they'll do is they'll just sort of pick up their paper and they'll just sort of look at it. And then turn it back over. They don't actually realize that looking over your paper means looking at question one, reading question one again, answering in your head, and then seeing, oh, did I choose the right answer on my paper?
And then going to question two, and then going to question three, and going [00:29:00] to question four, and it's kind of annoying to have to go through the test again. Yeah. But you need to do that.
Mary Saghafi: And I will say like I would make it kind of like, How many errors did you catch? Guess what? Because if you figured it out, then your grade is going to be even better.
And that's okay.
Shannon Betts: Right. So I mean, I taught myself how to do that in middle school because I made so many calculation mistakes in my middle school math. And I had this very like, S strict nun, math teacher, sister Patricia Wolf. And so she was like, you would be an A student if you would just catch your errors.
And I mean, she said that all of sixth grade. And finally I was like, okay, I'm tired of her saying this to me. And so started checking over my work in seventh grade and she was right. I would just be, again, like my brain would be working faster than my pen, and I would just sometimes write the wrong number down, even though I'm meant to write a four, I wrote a five or something.
And so. I, you know, taught myself, even though it was a pain, to read over my work [00:30:00] before I turned it in, and I would usually find two or three or four errors, and that was the difference between a B and an A.
Mary Saghafi: I I really like the phrase that you said my pen was working faster than my brain because I think it takes the personification out of it.
Like, you know, it's not you being bad making errors. It's that you were just working faster than you really, you know, your brain and your pen were not in the same sync. Yeah. So I think that that's really important. My older daughter is awful perfectionist and also a loving perfectionist. I love her so much and we're working through so much of this.
And we were reading a story about perfectionism last night because she is one who either does working so fast and makes errors or the opposite. She gets stuck and spend so much time thinking, is this answer right? And then second guesses herself, and then comes back and second guesses herself. And the time just doesn't [00:31:00] even exist for her in that realm.
And so we've had some natural consequences because of that. And, and it's important to learn and talk through it, but. We kind of will talk about how it's her perfectionism taking over and like you personify the perfectionism, not you as a person. And I think that we have a lot more kids who are.
Struggling with these big feelings of anxiety and extra worry and and taking on things at younger ages than we probably anticipate that they would be taking on big issues like this and they feel them very deeply. I have a very deep thinker in my in my house and I know your kids are deep thinkers this way too.
And so we do need to be conscientious about it. And I think all of the advice that we've been sharing as teachers is especially on this episode is, is really helpful. So not only do you want to teach them how [00:32:00] to go through their mistakes, but also like how to feel sure about their answers.
Shannon Betts: Yeah. Sure.
It's like a feeling. And you can, you can teach that as well. Like I usually show that that old deodorant commercial for when we're like, raise your hand if you're sure, not sure. But so I do that as like a hook and then I'll tell the students, like, we'll talk about what sure means. Like you almost have like a, like a strong feeling in your core of like, I know this answer and I know it's right.
And so I'm going to raise my hand really strong and tall. And that's what, how you want them to feel when they're turning in work. And so, You know, when you're kind of looking at your test before you turn it in, if there are some that you were not sure about, kind of put a dot by those, and those are the ones that you need to read through more carefully until you get that sure, strong feeling.
Mary Saghafi: Exactly. Yep, exactly. And I think that this part is how we teach students to become stronger students. You know, like, you have to teach them, strong learners, [00:33:00] right, yes, they, but it's part of, like, the culture of the classroom, and it's something that you don't always get when you have an app, or something that, that is, like, technology based, that you can just click the answer, and then it shows you the right answer that, that kind of populates.
And so, I think that more students have grown up in this era where things are. So quickly given to them either through, you know, like a true or false answer on a computer screen or on a TV or something. And so it's a very different way of thinking about learning as opposed to when you. When I was in elementary school, that wasn't the case.
So this explicit nature of, of learning is really important to be taught.
Shannon Betts: I think this is really important topic. Cause we're not talking about any specific skill that we're teaching. We're not talking about any specific standard or knowledge. I'm remembering this interview I heard with Yo Yo Ma, the cello cello player.
And [00:34:00] he says, music happens between the notes. What he was saying was that the ear kind of pieces together the musical symphony in between each note and kind of fills in the gaps. That's just like a minute second in between the notes. And that's the difference between like one person's, you know, Playing sound versus another person's playing stuff.
And I think that learning happens between the lessons. In that way. I think that's a really good point. I think that's a really good point. You know, any specific lesson plan. What we're talking about is the way you correct any error with students, the way you give feedback to students, the way that you have set up the learning culture of your classroom.
That's what transforms them into learners that will continue as learning habits, even after they're outside your classroom walls, you know, perfect. And they're in the next grade and the next grade and the next grade. That's how you really transform that student engagement. [00:35:00] And so. It really does start with the mistake.
It starts with just the student making a mistake and how we address that mistake that sets up that classroom culture of of learning and growth mindset that we're going to see.
Mary Saghafi: I think that's perfect. I really think that's perfect. And I think that. The more experience you have with teaching and with Children in general and a population of Children that changes year after year, you do start to notice these patterns that happen either in grade bands or just.
Personality styles and things like that. And so I think that's really perfect. Yeah, the learning definitely happens between the lessons. And I think that's sort of the art of teaching. You know, that we always kind of talk about the science of teaching and the art of teaching, and this is sort of the art of teaching and I feel like we haven't had an opportunity to chat about that as, as openly, but it's so important.
Shannon Betts: Right. And what it shows us that like, our [00:36:00] teacher behaviors are very important, but they also are very fluid. Like I, I changed the way I teach a certain skill every single time, depending on the students that are with me and the way they're responding to the teaching. Right. I might speed it up. I might slow it down.
I might add extra questions. I might add extra guided practice. I might add extra independent practice. I might do extra small group or something. It just depends on the response, the student responses. And as I can see, the learning going from my head to theirs.
Mary Saghafi: I, I think it's perfect.
Shannon Betts: And then, and I, and I build in that culture of like, I want to see every student telling me what they know, even if it's a mistake, so that I can know if they know it or not.
Right.
Mary Saghafi: We've done a good job of covering this topic today, I think.
Shannon Betts: I like it. I do want to add one more thing. I was thinking while we were talking about One of my older students with dyslexia. I think I've spoken about him in the past in seasons, but he's [00:37:00] extremely, extremely intelligent as most students with dyslexia are.
They are high IQ as well. And he struggles with phonemic awareness in bigger words, specifically in the middle and end of words. And that shows up in his spelling. And also in the reversals he'll make. He won't make a reversal in the beginning of a word, but he'll make a reversal in the middle and end.
Or he'll, you know, sometimes omit a whole syllable from the middle of a word or omit the suffix from the end of the word or so forth. And so an accommodation that we put in place for him is well, after I did some intervention, I noticed that when I made a mistake, he could find my mistakes in my own handwriting because he's so intelligent.
He actually could find mistakes. And so what I realized is that he kind of needed to see his own learning, his own work with fresh eyes. And so what we had done as an accommodation for him in the past is given him time to like, okay, When you're done with a spelling test, when you're done with a writing task, when you're done with something in grammar, [00:38:00] turn the paper over, give your brain a five minute reading break or something like that.
Then look at your paper with fresh eyes and see if you can find the mistakes the way you found them when I made mistakes. Because you're good at finding mistakes. We just need you to find your own mistakes. And when we gave him that accommodation and that time he was much better. At finding his own mistakes.
He couldn't find him 100 percent of the time, but he did a lot better at finding his own mistakes. And so I think that that's just an important anecdote to share that sometimes we can even use mistakes and the knowledge about them to inform our intervention and to inform the accommodations we give students.
Mary Saghafi: I completely agree. And I think that that's. It does take a little time, a little bit of extra effort but that is really like the art of helping your students grow, learn, take ownership of their the work that they are putting out. And so I love that. I think the other piece of that accommodation [00:39:00] that I really like is that that's a very real thing.
If I'm going to be editing, let's say an important email that I want to send out, I'm going to walk away from it. And then I'm going to come back, and I'm going to try to come back and notice, and I think that That's another example of something that you need to really share with students like that. Hey, that's a real life Yeah, do all the time and you should do it, too
Shannon Betts: So yeah, I'm looking at it with fresh eyes.
We do do that as adults.
Mary Saghafi: Absolutely I share it with a friend and then I even go back after that and I look at it one more time Before I'm going to share
Shannon Betts: I'll print it because I see it differently on print than in screen Mm hmm. Yeah, I'm analog.
Mary Saghafi: You're analog. That's okay. Your brain is, it switched back and it went, no thanks.
Shannon Betts: Well, I'm just Gen X too. So I mean, I was analog anyway for Gen X, but, but yes, after my brain injury, I've definitely gone more analog, but yeah, that can, that can show students, [00:40:00] especially because also, I mean, Docs.
Will underline a spelling error as red or a grammar error is blue for us. And so that's already giving us a few fresh eyes to say, Hey, fix this part of it. Mm-hmm. . But if when they're turning it in on a test, they're not gonna have that. And so, We need to teach them to do that on their own and give them time to do that and get that little break in between, even if it's just five minutes, gives them enough time to see the fresh eyes.
If you can't give them overnight.
Mary Saghafi: One of the little like other tidbits I didn't share with you before is in my classroom, I would. make kind of like a really silly way of saying that I made a mistake. I'd be like, Oh, bananas, or just something that's like a little silly, you know, like, like, goodness, gracious, golly, like, you know, just like things that are a little just like out of the ordinary.
And that always kind of lightened the [00:41:00] mood about mistakes, too. And so I think like, build that part up. Hi, make it acceptable. Make it okay. Yeah.
Shannon Betts: Oh, and one and one that game that I've made is it's sort of like reciprocal teaching, I guess, but I call it Am I right? And depending on where the students errors are, maybe it's a phonemic awareness error, or maybe it's a, you know, blending error, or maybe it's a decoding error, whatever kind of error it is, or encoding.
inform, I'll, I can modify the activity depending on where their errors are. But what I'll do is I'll, I'll say, well, we're going to take turns checking each other's work. And today I want you to be the checker and I'm going to do this task and I want to see if you can find the mistakes. And what's great about that is if they get it, if they notice your mistake, you can praise them and say, oh, great, you found my mistake.
And the more you do that, they're going to eventually get better at finding their own mistakes. But if they miss their [00:42:00] mistake, then you can be like, haha, I tricked you. I really hit that mistake. Let me show you where it was. And then, or I made a mistake in the middle of the word, I'm going to do it again and see if you can notice the mistake, you know, or give them a little hint, or you can tell them outright and say, and then, you know, maybe go back and circle back and then try to do a similar error.
Maybe a few turns down the road and see if they'll notice at that time. And then you can praise them like, Oh, I didn't trick you that time you found it. And the more you play that game the more, the, the better they get at their, at their automatic self correction and their self monitoring. It's, it's just amazing.
And they have a lot of fun with it, because like, I'll be dramatic and do that, you know, I don't really say, oh, bananas, but I'll do stuff like that.
Mary Saghafi: Oh, bananas is my catchphrase. Yeah, that's Mary's.
Shannon Betts: I won't take it, but I make it fun, you know, and, I praise them a lot and they like being the teacher. They like finding the teacher mistakes and things like that.
And that really helps with students making vowel errors. Like if they sound out cop as [00:43:00] cup, or maybe they'll say the sounds correctly. Like they'll say cop. But then they'll blend it as cup. I've seen that before. All of those kinds of things are things that I'll do in the Am I Right game where I'll, I'll do the exact same error that they have done in a previous lesson.
And that eventually, you know, makes them better and make fewer mistakes. I love that. So we love mistakes. We want you guys to love mistakes too. Give a lot of authentic reading and writing tasks. Yeah. Look at the students writing pieces. You don't have to grade them all for spelling, but look at the spelling.
Yeah. Don't fix everything. For information. Yeah. Just look at it for information of what to, you know, what the students are ready to learn, what they still need to know. It'll tell you what developmental level they're at. I love looking at the words their way spelling inventory, specifically the error analysis chart, because it lines up with the developmental levels.
And you [00:44:00] kind of look at the, you know, the way this. Child misspelled the word and you circle that misspelling. There's like all these different choices of misspellings on this chart and you circle the one that they made and you start to see a pattern that kind of vertically students are kind of making the same kind of mistakes word for word by word, and it follows within a developmental pattern.
So that's really. Interesting. And then also don't throw away running records just because we're moving away from balanced literacy to science of reading. Still do running records. Listen to the students read, but it's a specific way of running record where you're taking an oral reading fluency, usually a rate, you know, you might as well do that while you're giving a running record, just so you can get that information as well.
But then also take note of the errors that they're making and what words they're substituting or omitting. See if they're catching their own errors and use that to inform your teaching as well.
Mary Saghafi: Yeah, I was looking at, I was reading an online forum just the other day and the, the debate was really about running [00:45:00] records.
And we know that Balance literacy and a running record is not maybe the best way to gather this information. However, do we want to listen to our students read? Yes. Do we want to look and see which errors they are making? Absolutely. Yes. So sometimes I think changing the language of, of what we're, we're actually talking about is different.
So maybe instead of calling it a running record, we're doing decoding analysis or, right. So I think, I think that that part is, is kind of
Shannon Betts: a one minute reading prompt,
Mary Saghafi: right? Yeah. Yeah. I think once you start to look kind of like. describe it and use language that is more science of reading appropriate and, and based on more evidence based practices, it, it definitely helps.
Just want to throw that part in there.
Shannon Betts: And I think we've said this before, we've talked about data. It's just, it's what you do with the data that makes it meaningful. And I think that's what this mistakes [00:46:00] topic is about too.
Mary Saghafi: How well do you understand?
Shannon Betts: Yeah, you're making the students comfortable making those mistakes because then you as the teacher are making these mistakes meaningful because they're giving you an insight into their thinking and you know now what the next step to do is.
And if the students are just silent and not showing you what they know or don't know, it's going to take a lot longer to figure that information out. And there's gonna be a lot more trial and error. True.
Mary Saghafi: Yeah. True. Or the behaviors of shutdown. Yeah.
Shannon Betts: Or there's assumptions made where, you know, you assume they've known it and then they bomb the test and then what do you do?
You need to move on to the next unit, you know? Yeah. Yeah. Right.
Mary Saghafi: Well. So the next topic. Yes.
Shannon Betts: Thank you so much. This was really fun to talk about and thank you everyone for joining us in the teachers lounge.
Mary Saghafi: We love having others eavesdrop on our conversations. We hope that you do send us an email [00:47:00] if you have any questions or if you want to add some information, please email us at.
Reading teachers lounge at gmail. com.
Shannon Betts: Yes. And check out our social media following this episode on Instagram and Facebook, because we mentioned a lot of things that are kind of visual on this episode. So I think sometimes picture tells a thousand words. So we'll show a picture of that air analysis.
We'll show a picture of some of the other things that we were mentioning, like those dictation sentences that you were talking about and things like that, so that they can see it as well as hear it.
Mary Saghafi: I'll share a recent words their way inventory too, so you can kind of see what the errors look like.
We're always giving that one. Mm hmm.
Shannon Betts: All right. Bye bye. Bye.